Waldron Frock Coat Discussion

[Ken]

Edited to re-open thread to permit discussion of Spence Waldron reproduction Federal Enlisted frock coats, other reproductions, the weather, and other topics that don't violate forum rules. Thanks for your understanding. Sorry for any inconvenience.

John "LibertyHallVols" Wickett
Your Friendly Neighborhood Moderator

[Ian McWherter]

Re: Waldron Frock Coat For Sale ebay

I don't really think the Frock Coat was patterned from an original. Just look at the width of the back pieces, very large compared to an original coat. The spacing between the shoulder seam and the side back seam in particular looks to be at least a good 4". I've never seen an original that has such large back pieces. It looks like a commercial pattern simply modified. I've also never seen an original that has a brown polished cotton breast lining, they are almost always black alpaca (faded to a greenish or brownish color) in originals.

Look at the back pieces on these originals:

[Ian McWherter]

Re: Waldron Frock Coat For Sale ebay

Here's a photo of the same original artillery frock showing part of the front breast lining. You can see the typical greenish/brownish color that alpaca linings fade to. I have numerous original civilian frock coats that have alpaca linings that have faded to the same color:

[Bummer]

Waldron Frock Coat For Sale ebay--again

I'm not sure why the thread with this title was closed so quickly. I would have greatly enjoyed a discussion as to why (or why not) one thinks said frock coat was not patterned after an original, and learned something. We got one person's view saying so and then the thread is locked. How come?

The comments were partially correct and partially wrong. The back panels on that coat (and many others like it) are wider apart than usual, that is true. But that is the way the particular original was. Some were made with a considerably narrower back panels too.

As it happens, the original of that particular copy resides in the collection of one Thomas Raysor of Wash. DC. The maker of that coat owned two other originals that were actually in the shop when that one was being made along with an additional artllery one that was borrowed. Such things as a wider back panel could have been quite easily changed if that was desired.

Where the gentleman was correct is that alpaca serge was not used as the chest lining as at the time of that coat's creation, such cloth was about impossible to find. A very few S. Waldron coats were indeed made with alpaca serge linings however, and the price was commenserate (pricey).

While we are discussing the merits and demerits of S. Waldron frock coats I would like to add another flaw; the arm pit holes are cut a bit larger than the originals as a rule--because very few reenactors of today woul tolerate the original size of 19th century cuts. If anyone has ever had the 'pleasure' of wearing an original 19th cent. frockcoat--military or civilian--will soon find it extremely discomforting to today's tastes.
Also on most S. Waldron productions still around today, one will find (gasp) machine made buttonholes. Hand ones were an option that most customers preferred not to pay for.

The point of S. Waldron clothes was not to make perfect clones (although some were indeed made and I have yet to see one sold today as a reproduction) but rather as I always used to say, "we are the model T Ford of reenactment clothing". A good product that was affordable. One could purchase all the bells and whistles--and some did--but the main product was...what it was.

Thank you.

[LibertyHallVols]

Re: Waldron Frock Coat Discussion

I pruned two threads and merged them together so discussion of reproductions could take place. Thanks!

[Ian McWherter]

Re: Waldron Frock Coat For Sale ebay--again

I'm not sure why the thread with this title was closed so quickly. I would have greatly enjoyed a discussion as to why (or why not) one thinks said frock coat was not patterned after an original, and learned something. We got one person's view saying so and then the thread is locked. How come?

The comments were partially correct and partially wrong. The back panels on that coat (and many others like it) are wider apart than usual, that is true. But that is the way the particular original was. Some were made with a considerably narrower back panels too.

As it happens, the original of that particular copy resides in the collection of one Thomas Raysor of Wash. DC. The maker of that coat owned two other originals that were actually in the shop when that one was being made along with an additional artllery one that was borrowed. Such things as a wider back panel could have been quite easily changed if that was desired.

I'd love to have this discussion as well.

Do you have pictures of the original(s) showing back pieces as wide as the reproduction? I've never seen an original frock coat whether federal issue, confederate or civilian with back pieces that wide. Yes, I'm aware of original Federal issue frock coats with slightly larger back pieces, but nothing that wide. Even on very large size original civilian frock coats and tailcoats the back pieces remain narrow. Modern commercial patterns when graded up in size generally add the extra width to the back pieces, because it's the easiest place to add it.

When I looked at the photos of the reproduction, to me, the body pieces looked like they came off a Period Impressions or Homespun pattern, they have signature wide back pieces. Some of the other pieces may have been modified to look more like the original since that would be easier, but narrowing the back pieces is a little more fiddly.

I'm happy to alter my opinion with photographs of the original that was copied.

[Ian McWherter]

Re: Waldron Frock Coat Discussion

Here are more photos of original Federal Issue Frock Coats showing their backs, these were from the John Henry Kurtz Collection (including the artillery frock above), he had quite a few frocks in his collection and all have narrow backs:







Here are some photos from C.J. Daley's website showing a Boylan Contract Frock Coat, and again narrow back pieces:
http://www.cjdaley.com/boylancoat.htm