Hobby Motivation Question: Ed vs Immersion

[LibertyHallVols]

For your consideration:
A hypothetical event retracing the route of a march during the war. Authenticity standards are strict. Rations will be issued. Pickets will be posted all night each night. Wagons will be used for hauling food and other logistical support. But...

Boy scouts from the area will be marching, camping, cooking, eating, and standing guard with you the whole time as part of the event.

What are your thoughts about such an event?
1) "No way in the world I would attend. I'd rather opt for a REAL immersion event." (Feelings of "I don't want to spend my time in the hobby babysitting a bunch of snot-nosed kids" ;) could also be lumped in here)

2) "No big deal. I'm in the hobby to be with my friends and to recreate the past. The scouts wouldn't effect me one way or the other."

3) "The opportunity to share these experiences with the scouts would make me MORE interested in the event. Please tell me where to sign up!!"

Please let me know your thoughts on this. Not judging anyone's motivation for the hobby. Rather, I just want to get folks' pulse on this kind of stuff. Feel free to only vote, or vote and comment.

Thanks!

[FloridaConscript]

Re: Hobby Motivation Question: Ed vs Immersion

interesting idea. I'd be up for it, but then again, I was the only kid to use a "horse collar" instead of a back pack in my boy scout days.

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Hobby Motivation Question: Ed vs Immersion

Hallo!

"No try. Either do, or not do." -Mr. Miyagi.

This may sound Zen-like, but... by the event's design, it is not "immersion."
The very presence of the Boy Scouts alters the event and prevents it from being "immersion" as it is "demonstration" or "presentation" with the Boy Scouts being the audience.
Even if one tries for immersion, the mere presence of the "Moderns" inserts a negative dynamic or element that has a critical effect on the ability to "immerse" into the history.

BUT...

IMHO, realizing that, I would go to the event not for "immersion" but for the sharing, showing, and "educating" the (anachronistic) Boy Scouts.

Others' mileage will vary...

Curt
Apples and oranges Mess

[LibertyHallVols]

Re: Hobby Motivation Question: Ed vs Immersion

Curt,

Good point, and I recognized that going into this thread. But, I'm glad you made that distinction... and you did so more eloquently that I would have. ;)

But, you got the point I was driving toward. Thanks!

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Hobby Motivation Question: Ed vs Immersion

Hallo!

One of my Heresies is that the greatest single cause of conflict, friction, politics, and anger lies not in standards but rather in failed expectations.

Meaning, lads bring one Mental Picture to an event where they believe or were led to believe there would be "certain kinds or levels of things" whether uniform/kit/impression standards or activities. ONLY to have those expectations failed.
While some lads or more flexible, others are more brittle.

For me personally, if I were "sold a bill of goods" and travelled half way across the country in expectation of a say a "Time Warp or Time Machine Model" "immersion event to find Boy Scouts, I would be "disappointed and "irritated."
But if I knew the Boy Scouts were part of the event, I could, would, make the decision beforehand whether the "terms" or "conditions" of the event were something I wanted to share in or pass on.

Curt

[ky4union]

Re: Hobby Motivation Question: Ed vs Immersion

While it would be impossible to fully immerse, I would definitely consider an event like that.

My mess campaigned at a mainstream event in November next to a boy scout troop doing the same thing. They were in decent uniforms, campaigning, doing camp and guard duties, having period conversations, conducting excellent drill and were "more immersed" than the vast majority of other reenactors at the event. The only things that made them stand out were their ages and that they were not allowed to carry real rifles.

Even without that effort by the scouts, I would still consider doing the event purely for education reasons, but it wouldn't replace an actual immersion event.

[Hank Trent]

Re: Hobby Motivation Question: Ed vs Immersion

I voted no effect. Just depending on how they're prepared, how the event is advertised, etc., the boyscouts might be more or less interested in history than the reenactors.

Case in point: I brought a new guy to Bummers. We got separated Saturday night, since it was always in the plan that we might. He spent the night with a bunch of soldiers and said all they talked about was modern stuff: music, etc. He didn't know what to do, so he just joined in. "They were nice guys..." he said. But it wasn't how the first part of the event went, or what he'd expected.

By contrast, I spent the night with a bunch of soldiers who pretty much kept focussed on the history, as promised, at least around me. Much different experience. I explained to him afterwards about how different reenactors would choose to add or detract from the accuracy of events, and one couldn't assume that everyone would add.

Frankly, I'd rather be around a bunch of boyscouts interested in trying to experience history than a bunch of reenactors who aren't.

Hank Trent
hanktrent@gmail.com

[Johnny Lloyd]

Re: Hobby Motivation Question: Ed vs Immersion

Wouldn't want to attend... I agree with Curt's assessment of the difficulties of getting into the period being difficult with anachronisms around- especially walking and talking ones.

Personally, I like trying to live in the period mindset and forget about the outside world for awhile... Boy Scouts would not be conducive to this at an "immersion" event.

That's what they make living histories for... so the public can attend and the participant can educate if they want to and they know about the event's objectives/standards beforehand.

All the best- Johnny Lloyd:wink_smil

[MO-Pard]

Re: Hobby Motivation Question: Ed vs Immersion

I think this is a great way to get kids excited and introduced to the hobby and history, but I think it would be better served on more of a local scale and all know that going in. Kind of like an interactive living history....

[Co. B Rhode Island]

Re: Hobby Motivation Question: Ed vs Immersion

Let me start by saying, I'm a Scoutmaster. I've have done modern backpacking with scouts of all ages, from 11 to 18. It is a very different experiance hiking/marching with an 11 -12 year old then with a 15-18 year old. That being said, are you thinking any age scout or older scouts (ie Venture program age 14-18). My answer will be different.

Ed Davenport

[Union Navy]

Re: Hobby Motivation Question: Ed vs Immersion

Properly prepared scouts could add to the event for me, at least educationally. We have to prepare ourselves for immersion, why not them? Some in-depth study guided by the pack leaders (or even one of us) could get them ready for hard ground and questionable food and no privacy and dealing with boredom in a period fashion. For some, this may be the longest the've been unplugged in their lives. The opportunities to increase understanding are just too great to pass up.

[PogueMahone]

Re: Hobby Motivation Question: Ed vs Immersion

A hypothetical event retracing the route of a march during the war. Authenticity standards are strict. Rations will be issued. Pickets will be posted all night each night. Wagons will be used for hauling food and other logistical support. But...

No where did John promise "immersion". He only promised high standards.

If I were told up front the expectations (as Curt pointed out) of the event, then I might be willing to participate. If these kids had been studying the history of the war prior to this event and this event would culminate in some sort of badge for them and wasn't just another camping trip, then I'd be inclined to help. If it were just a jaunt in the woods with reenactors for them, not so much.

At the same time, I'd be thinking "What a waste of great property, great logistics and a great time! If these kids weren't here, this would be a really cool event!"

[bdyanko]

Re: Hobby Motivation Question: Ed vs Immersion

Question: Will the Scouts be dressed for the period, or will they have their modern stuff?

Really this is a opportunity to "Immerse" the Scouts. Sure, it may mess up your vibe but, how cool is it for them? Its more than just the hike in, camp, and hike out trip.

[Eric Fair]

Re: Hobby Motivation Question: Ed vs Immersion

This thread brings to mind an interesting question - how many times have we been to events that state up front that they are immersion events only to come across individuals/groups that are not even trying to maintain first person or a period demeanor? For me personally, it's not usually the stated goals for an event that are the problem, especially if they are clear, it's when those goals are ignored or set aside by persons/groups.

I'm not sure what can be done here - especially if it's an entire group/mess. Do you warn them en masse? If they can't/won't comply, what then? Kick them out of the event? Also, if you are a aware that a certain group may have difficulties maintaining a period demeanor for an entire weekend, why allow them to participate in the first place (and don't get me wrong, I realize this is difficult for the most dedicated living historian)? Is it just in the interest of maintaining numbers? For me personally, I'd rather attend a smaller event with a group of folks really trying to maintain their impressions for the duration of the event than a large-scale event with groups of guys talking about their favorite WWII movies and quoting Python.

Not sure if I have any answers, just a couple of questions I thought I'd throw out there that seemed relevant. Now back to your regularly scheduled thread...

[LibertyHallVols]

Re: Hobby Motivation Question: Ed vs Immersion

Thanks, Joe! You're right... I didn't prommise immersion! I failed to recognize that earlier.

Here's what drove this:
The year 2011 marks the bicentennial of the Battle of Tippecanoe and the local historical society is in the throws of preparing for it. During the sesquicentennial in 1961, a troop of Boy Scouts retraced Harrison's route of march from Terre Haute to Prophetstown (that's a long friggin way, for those of you not familiar with Hoosier geography), earning a merit badge in the process.

Evidently, that was a pretty impactful experience for them in their youth because some of those "Boy Scouts of '61" ;) are calling up asking if there are any plans to repeat the march. In light of the "Inovative Interp..." thread, I thought, "Why not us?"

So, naturally, I was curious what folks here would think about such an event. As Joe rightly observed, I didn't want to frame the event as a "Scout camp-out" with some reenactors along for window-dressing. Rather, a quality event "done right" where the reenactors are facilitating and directing the activities. If "immersion" were taking place, it would be more from the point of view of the scouts... Relative to their non-existent level of experience, it "would be" an immersion event.

Thanks, folks! I appreciate the input on this. Again, I don't intend for there to be any "wrong" point of view here. What you enjoy and what motivates you in the hobby is YOUR business.

Keep the votes and posts coming!

Thanks!!!