Hobby Motivation Question: Ed vs Immersion

[Justin Morris]

Re: Hobby Motivation Question: Ed vs Immersion

I think its a great idea. I am an Eagle Scout with 10 years in Scouting and owe a lot to Scouts. I would have loved it as a Scout to attend such an event. You would need to limit it to older Scouts, such as 14 and older, as my idea of fun would not involve baby sitting 11 year olds!!!!!!!!!

[Old Reb]

Re: Hobby Motivation Question: Ed vs Immersion

I went to an event where the main focus was a tractor pull. The tractor pull was well attended and greeted with great enthusiasm. After the tractor pull, the spectators could come on down and see a "real civil war battle." I feel the same way about having a tractor pull at an event as I would boy scouts, girl scouts, Green Peace, UN observers, or an SCV flag waving parade. I don't want to be there! However, if folks knew before hand that any of the above were going to be present, and still opted to attend, that is their business and their choice.

[Johnny Lloyd]

Re: Hobby Motivation Question: Ed vs Immersion

For me, 'if authenticity isn't the focus, why attend'?

This goes for educating the public at a living history as well as an EFUBU event. So, no... I wouldn't want to have Boy Scouts at an 'authentically-focused' event even if they were dressed in the best period fashion.

What makes great events is that 90% of the people that attend 'authentically-focused' events (Living History open to the public as well as EBUFU ones here) are 'in' on the idea of what the event is supposed to be about... not just dressing in period fashion and doing period activities but having an attitude/mindset that goes along with it as well.

When we do EBUFUs or what 'makes the magic' that everyone loves and wants is that we create a time/place/mentality of as close to long ago as possible using period dress/speech/activities/and thinking. I am in doubt that it would be enjoyable to have people that do not know about this involved unless they have REAL discipline to get with the program very quickly.

In this case, I highly doubt Boy Scouts dressed in period fashion at an 'authentically-focused' event doing period activities would have the mindset that most of the authentic subculture has developed in their experience.

If the AC was not developed with the beginner in-mind, then to me, neither were 'authentically-focused' events that I like to attend... Therefore, I wouldn't want to attend such events. I just don't choose to support events such as this.

Wowie... I'm sounding like a real 'bah humbug'. Yikes!

All the best- Johnny Lloyd:wink_smil

[LibertyHallVols]

Re: Hobby Motivation Question: Ed vs Immersion

Johnny,

Thanks for your post and I appreciate your honesty. A question, so I can better understand where you're coming from:
Where do NPS LH events where the public is in attendance fall? Are these "out of scope" for you, also?

Obviously, a key difference between my hypothetical event and an NPS LH is that the public is "viewing" the reenactors, not participating with them as the scouts would be doing in my scenario.

Quick General Comment, Re: "Scouts in Period Dress"...
If one of those boys wants to outfit himself, that's great. But I don't think it would be likely or reasonable for a whole troop "dress up". There's too much time and money involved for that involving kids who are growing fast and might not fit into the gear they'd receive by the time they got it.

One more comment:
I think Curt's observation on un-met expectations is on-the-money, both for the hobby and as a fundamental truth of life. Reading half of the griping posts on-line about events, and this is true. Most of them boil down to "I expected 'X', but got 'Y'!"

Thanks, folks!

[Steve Acker]

Re: Hobby Motivation Question: Ed vs Immersion

I would definately enjoy an event where I can help boy scouts gain a greater appreciation of history. If the scouts had decent kit, an "immersion experience," would be an even more meaningful exposure than a "mainstream experience".

That said, I agree with others that if such a thing were to occur, it needs to be announced clearly so attendees know what they are coming to. It would not be fair to let an unknowing group of folks travel to an immersion event only to have a bunch of scouts asking questions about how the soldier's cooked, camped, fought, and other curiosity based dialogue.


Steve Acker

[PogueMahone]

Re: Hobby Motivation Question: Ed vs Immersion

I highly doubt Boy Scouts dressed in period fashion at an 'authentically-focused' event doing period activities would have the mindset that most of the authentic subculture has developed in their experience.

Frankly, my experience has been the exact opposite. The "authentic subculture" are usually barely past the mentality of boys and spend their time and attention on foolishness that has nothing to do with "Civil War" while at events.

If the Boy Scouts were 1) dressed appropriately and knew some drill and 2) older than 15 years of age, I bet they would blend right in.

[Mtn.Guerilla]

Re: Hobby Motivation Question: Ed vs Immersion

Heck yes I would attend ! As a matter of fact I'm the den leader of my son's cub scout troop. Granted these are only 6-7 year olds, not boy scouts, but the character of even the young ones are always impressive to me.

Like previously stated, I would attend an event like this not with the idea of getting "my immerssion on", but as a means of educating a group that would probably find the history were are trying to recreate interesting. As well as find the people doing the recreating, inteteresting. I would prefer my son/and his friends, attend an event like this, as oppossed to a mainstream dog and pony show.

[Johnny Lloyd]

Re: Hobby Motivation Question: Ed vs Immersion

Johnny,

Thanks for your post and I appreciate your honesty. A question, so I can better understand where you're coming from:
Where do NPS LH events where the public is in attendance fall? Are these "out of scope" for you, also?

Obviously, a key difference between my hypothetical event and an NPS LH is that the public is "viewing" the reenactors, not participating with them as the scouts would be doing in my scenario.

For me, these would be fine for a visiting troop of Boy Scouts to see/interract with as modern observers while maintaining the '4th wall' as best as we reenactors could, but I really wouldn't want them mixed-in with us.

Quick General Comment, Re: "Scouts in Period Dress"...
If one of those boys wants to outfit himself, that's great. But I don't think it would be likely or reasonable for a whole troop "dress up". There's too much time and money involved for that involving kids who are growing fast and might not fit into the gear they'd receive by the time they got it.

Yep. Wholly agreed. One or two is enough... perhaps 3 or four.

Immitation is the sincerest form of flattery, and the 'taters are great at Living Histories... especially when they go home at night. I'm probably going to regret saying that... the great Mr. Heef told me that once. LOL

You know... many of the period events I like to engage in at events anyway are just not generally 'family friendly' such as drinking... smoking... gambling... cussing. I just thought of that.

:D

One more comment:
I think Curt's observation on un-met expectations is on-the-money, both for the hobby and as a fundamental truth of life. Reading half of the griping posts on-line about events, and this is true. Most of them boil down to "I expected 'X', but got 'Y'!"

This is why we need to make great efforts in order to clarify ALL perceived expectations regarding ALL events when they are advertised.

Ya'll know what opinions are like...

All the best- Johnny Lloyd:wink_smil

[jake.koch]

Re: Hobby Motivation Question: Ed vs Immersion

I think you should look at it from your own experiences. I was never a cub scout or boy scout, but evenso, I would have killed to have this type of oppurtunity as a kid. If you look at kids today, there are still a few that are nuts about history, I think if somthing like this was done and done well, it would be beneficial to all sides.

I am sure that there would be some kids that wouldn't care at all, but there might just be a few that would be really motivated by what they experience. They may not join the hobby, but they would really get somthing out of the event, and our hobby may become painted a better way than it is by those that know nothing about what our side does.

How many times have you heard someone say that they would have joined the hobby sooner but they didn't know it existed. This could be a good way to find a new audience.

[Johnny Lloyd]

Re: Hobby Motivation Question: Ed vs Immersion

How many times have you heard someone say that they would have joined the hobby sooner but they didn't know it existed. This could be a good way to find a new audience.

A valid opinion... but a counterpoint: I feel the "audience" (general public, mainstreamers) should "find" us as campaigners.

Converting the heathens is no longer an option for me... been there, tried that.... no success. Let them find us.

I'd introduce someone to the authentic hobby happily if they wanted to know about it at a living history that is open to the public, but I wouldn't want the same at an 'authentic event' that is focused on 'getting into the moment' because it isn't what I came there for.

My preference for my hobby time/effort/dollars would to be to do LH with no public/public invited and EBUFU events (or, at least, 'compromise events' that had an EBUFU component of some sort).

All the best- Johnny Lloyd:wink_smil

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Hobby Motivation Question: Ed vs Immersion

Hallo!

Oh nooooooo. NOT "War of 1812." Run away, run away!

Who makes the best M1795 Springfield? Is my my M1768 "Charleville" close enough for 1811?

Just a-funnin'...

:)

"This is why we need to make great efforts in order to clarify ALL perceived expectations regarding ALL events when they are advertised."

IMHO that opens a side bar discussion akin to the unpopular one about hobby jargon, labels, terms, and the lack of universal "dictionary" lads with varying Mental Pictures could/would agree upon.

Looking at some of the replies here, there appears to be (and is IMHO) differences in what "immersion" means.
Taken to an extreme, the mere presence of modern dressed Boy Scouts or for that matter impeccably authentically dressed and equipped 12 year olds
destroys the ability to achieve any approximation of a Time Warp or Time Machine Model "immersion" experience.
Taken to the other extreme, there may be some lads that see "immersion" much the way some lads view what is "living history..." For example, at an event immersing oneself into CW soldier life by not leaving the event to have dinner at Wendy's but rather opening a can of Dinty Moore and pouring it into a mucket to cook on the fireplace set in front of the family wall tent's campfire. Or better yet, frying up some salt pork and kush in the company street's cookfire.

But keeping it in the context of demonstrating or presenting living history for an audience of attached Boy Scouts it "has to be" demonstration as it cannot be immersion (except where the connotation and denotation of pulling bits and pieces of solderly life out of the larger picture is immersion enough.)

And the rest can be a glass half empty or half full argument as to how much or how little our varied Mental Pictures require on the Sliding Scale of Imperfection before the presence of Moderns kills "immersion" and reduces it down to just bits and pieces of "living history?"

(Hint: IMHO, as we do not agree on the definitions or the substantive quality or quantity, the question is rhetorical and Mental Picture driven.)

But yeah... whether "Indian Wars" or Civil War, whatever, at age 12 I would have killed to go off with such lads... and what I would have seen would have been magic to me not the finer points of what was correct or authentic.

:)

Curt

[Hank Trent]

Re: Hobby Motivation Question: Ed vs Immersion

Frankly, my experience has been the exact opposite. The "authentic subculture" are usually barely past the mentality of boys and spend their time and attention on foolishness that has nothing to do with "Civil War" while at events.

If the Boy Scouts were 1) dressed appropriately and knew some drill and 2) older than 15 years of age, I bet they would blend right in.

I agree with Joe.

I'm more interested in being around people who are enthusiastic about trying to be part of the past, up to the current level of their ability. I'm more willing to cut Boy Scouts some slack if they're trying, and less willing to "forgive" reenactors who know better but have just deliberately decided to screw history right now because something else is more fun.

I've already volunteered to take one of the embedded reporters under my wing at "To Prevent the Effusion of Blood" in 2011 if they decide to do that, and I think this would be the same thing on a larger scale and equally fun.

Hank Trent
hanktrent@gmail.com

[Johnny Lloyd]

Re: Hobby Motivation Question: Ed vs Immersion

Frankly, my experience has been the exact opposite. The "authentic subculture" are usually barely past the mentality of boys and spend their time and attention on foolishness that has nothing to do with "Civil War" while at events.

If the Boy Scouts were 1) dressed appropriately and knew some drill and 2) older than 15 years of age, I bet they would blend right in.

Yeah... that can go two ways. I know how you feel, Joe. I referenced the better half of the authentic spectrum... and that (to me) is mostly 70% of the people I know in the hobby. I could name most of them. :D

J-LLO :wink_smil

[Michael Comer]

Re: Hobby Motivation Question: Ed vs Immersion

Yeah, there's some 'authentic' reenactors who are less mature than a Tenderfoot and I have had several immersion events ruined for me by those that were supposed to be hardcore first person type folks. Something like this can't be any worse especially when you know what you're getting up front.

I have been involved with scouting for many years and I can certainly see the benefit of something like this for many boys. I would echo what some have said though as to ages. I would be willing to come and take part in a group that is possibly 14 and up or with an Explorer Post or a Venture Crew. I don't know if I would want to take the time to spend the weekend with a bunch of 11 & 12 year old scouts. Have you ever seen those guys at summer camp?! I can't believe it would be much different at an event.

I think pre-event prep. work with the scouts that were taking part would be a vital aspect of anything like this. If they're just going to show up and say 'we're here', there's a whole lot of trouble brewing in my opinion.

While it might seem a real pain to some and not worth the effort. I can certainly respect that but I also wonder if it might be just the thing to get a young person devoted to the study and teaching of history for a lifetime. Future of the hobby and all that stuff. You just never know.

[Missouri Mule]

Re: Hobby Motivation Question: Ed vs Immersion

If I'm understanding you correctly, it sounds like you're wanting to do a "history heavy" presentation that isn't exactly an immersion (the scouts won't be "immersed" but we as "educators" will be) but it's bigger than a living history demonstration, right?

Having grown up is Scouts & being "afflicted" with this interest in the ACW, I would have absolutely loved to participate in something like this as a kid.

That said, I'm not a kid anymore . . . . at least, not chronologically!:D

Once upon a time, I worked for the Boy Scouts (BSA). I know how difficult it is for the volunteers to come up with a new theme/topic for the campouts, especially at the district level camporees (larger events with several scout troops coming from a certain geographic area). This would work great and would most likely be welcomed with open arms by scouting leaders.

That said, there may be a question of safety -- non-Scouting volunteers/reenactors working with the youth . . . . and bringing their own firearms! This is especially true when it comes to the "drinking... smoking... gambling... cussing" that was mentioned earlier. Having attempted to plan an ACW event with scouts, this was the biggest concern. It goes without saying that that behavior would not be allowed. After that, I'm sure that the remaining details would not be an insurmountable obstacle.

I know that there have been district camporees with a ACW theme done here in Missouri. My understanding is that they have been more like living histories where the scouts went from station to station & "learned" about some aspect of the ACW; there was no interaction like what John has described. As a teacher, I honestly believe that the depth of knowledge the scout would gain from participating in what you've described would be tremendous!

IMHO, the authentic community has the potential to be the best & most enlightened "educators" of the ACW that I know of. However, how do we present our "lessons"? How do we "teach" this? Where is that next generation of American History geeks/buffs/fans/whatever going to come from? We grumble all the time about how the public school systems don't do the job right -- why not step up and take the bull by the horns?

Personally, as long as all of the participants understand what they should expect from this event, I see no down side. I would love to do something like this. Where do I sign up?:)