Hobby Motivation Question: Ed vs Immersion

[Missouri Mule]

Re: Hobby Motivation Question: Ed vs Immersion

While it might seem a real pain to some and not worth the effort. I can certainly respect that but I also wonder if it might be just the thing to get a young person devoted to the study and teaching of history for a lifetime. Future of the hobby and all that stuff. You just never know.

This is what I was getting at in my previous post . . . . just couldn't get the words out. End of the school day & I just can't think straight!

[Moose]

Re: Hobby Motivation Question: Ed vs Immersion

Gents,
If I may say, in my youth I was a very active Boy Scout reaching the level of Eagle Scout, and Vigil Honor. So, like others, I may see this differently. But, let's look at this from a different window: The units of "living historians," and I use that term very loosely, that the Boy Scouts tend to get to come and "camp" with them, tend to be of the other end of the hobby. Sometimes, these boys are really looking for history and what they get is coolers and polyester.
If one truly wanted to influance the way youth look at history, doing it right and not cutting corners while working with the Boy Scouts is the best way to do it.
There is also a Boy Scout program called Venturing. This is were older scout 16+ I believe, get to join a crew that is seperate from their normal troop. The crews have focus, like shooting sports, mountain climbing, ect. There is a spot in Venturing for living history. And in all my contacts with the Scouts no where have I seen an authentic living history crew. There is a gap there, and that gap may have been created by our own inability to want to get involved in the Boy Scouts, and that the "living historians" most Boy Scouts do see, are little better then a dog and pony show. And the sad thing is, is that I bet a lot of these Boy Scouts spend more time hiking and doing field craft then most people on this forum.

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Hobby Motivation Question: Ed vs Immersion

Hallo!

"Yeah, there's some 'authentic' reenactors who are less mature than a Tenderfoot and I have had several immersion events ruined for me by those that were supposed to be hardcore first person type folks."

I think it may hijacking the thread to go to that discussion, but in brief...

IMHO, that is because the "jurying process" in how the invitations are given out is not tight.
Meaning, there are far more lads who are more posers and wannabees who think they have progressed and evolved to what "it takes" to do "okay" at the more History-Heavy immersions.

I am reminded of a nationally known figure/name who once organized a secret Time Warp immersion skillfully managing to get what many believed to be the "best" six lads in the hobby to come together.
As the secret leaked, word of mouth spread, friends of friends of neighbors of cousins who thought they once did an immersion event signed themselves up. The six became 8 who became 12, who became 18, who ended up being 54 showing up for the function.

In the end, yes, eight of the lads had what it took to carry off the event. A third or more were done six miles into the first day's 10 mile march.

Not to belabor the point, but yes, I have been to a number of "authentic." EBUFU, "immersion" events where too many of the attendees did not belong there and made it hard to impossible to "sustain or maintain the vision."

IMHO, providing a "living history" experience for say the Boy Scouts or Explorers is not "immersion" but a unique, potential quality, rewarding "living history education or experience" that thinks outside of the traditional box.

Curt

[KPavia]

Re: Hobby Motivation Question: Ed vs Immersion

I would go because I owe my thanks to reenactors doing demonstrations at a Boy Scout show in Irving, TX for getting me into the hobby when I was a 12 yr old. I remember once reading in "Boy's Life" magazine of a Venture crew who got to go out and do the annual Antietam reenactment and their experiences there. I was jealous, to say in the least.

Seeing as how scout troops plan waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay in advance for big trips, like Philmont, it wouldn't be too hard to get a crew, or maybe "squad" of about 5 16-18 yr old scouts to begin planning maybe a year in advance to attend an immersion or EFUBU event. That way they get paired up with a willing "mentor" who can equip them in period gear and drill them and train them in first person so that by the time the event rolls around, they wouldn't stick out as boy scouts. And if they have any questions during the event, they ask their "mentor" quietly so as to avoid breaking the "time machine" feeling. Through this preparation, I think you'd be able to weed out the boys who just want to go camping with guns and you'd end up with the ones who have a passion for history and want to authentically participate who only need the planted seed to get some good ol' TLC.
:)

[Pvt_Sullivan]

Re: Hobby Motivation Question: Ed vs Immersion

Please indulge me and read carefully this small remembrance...

A generation ago, I was a Boy Scout myself and at the age of 12 I had risen through the ranks to being a Patrol Leader in my troop and shortly I would even become the Senior Patrol Leader.

In 1983 the US and Canadian Boy Scout councils decided to stage an encampment of Boy Scouts at Old Fort York in Toronto in Ocotober. This Boy Scout encampment coincided with the 170th anniversary of the American assault on Fort York during the War of 1812 and it was decided to have the Canadian Scouts portray the British Soldiers defending the fort and the American Scouts the American Forces that took the fort.

For several months every group spent making equipment and uniforms for the event. There were even drill periods and history lessons about why this battle was significant and what occurred.

When the event occurred, there were hundreds of scouts and leaders on both sides and a great battle was recreated. Some clear rules were outlined for us young men and of course our leaders were there to keep us in line. On the American side a small modification to the non-firing muskets we had was made by the addition of a toy cap gun lock so we were able to actually fire 'volleys' which surprised the Canadians no doubt. An enterprising Canadian had procurred foam rubber bayonets for their side so we were equally surprised by the line of pointed (albeit safe) bayonet facing us.

I remember it as a grand time and I did learn something. I know one of the seeds that grew into my interest in history was planted back then.

OK, sorry for the long winded trip down memory lane. My point is that young men can be immersed to whatever point in history that they are willing to do. If as part of a group with proper adult leadership it would be a grand thing to participate in. In short I think a group of Boy Scouts could be brought to an immersion event and participate with the correct preparation and adult leadership.

Next, there has been quips about the 'authentic subculture' already laid out in this thread. In my opinion over the past three years of events and living histories I have participated in, this 'subculture' is a true detriment to Living History. It consists of individuals (both young and old) who think that as long as they look the part then the rest of it can be thrown out the window. I won't name and names, this isn't the venue for that. My comment is that each of us need to look at our own actions and those of our comrades and think are we making our best effort to immerse ourselves in the War Between the States. If we are not, if we are talking about reenactor politics or the latest reproduction kit out there, or we aren't in sufficient physical shape to perform the task at the event we are at, or we have not done the pre-event reading provided to know the history of an event. Then we are the failure and the only solution is self-improvement. No amount of righteous indignation on the internet can make any improvement.

Ok, getting off the soap box. I love the good experiences I've had in living history and I'm looking forward to many more in this year and the future.

John Wickett, if you have a particular group of scouts your query is concerned with and you needed some help with the project I would be honored to support it in any small way I can. Good Luck.

[LibertyHallVols]

Re: Hobby Motivation Question: Ed vs Immersion

Mod Hat On:
Please keep this thread on-topic. Tangents based on perceptions of offensive posts, etc. will not be tolerated. A couple of posts have been removed. No harm, no foul, and no offense intended, so don't take it personally.

[Abrams]

Re: Hobby Motivation Question: Ed vs Immersion

Please take my observations here with this premise: I am 50 years old, overweight, and no matter how good my kit is, I will not be able to do what you serious campaigners do, and have to hand-pick my events so to not be a detriment to the event. I'll not be signing on for 20 mile marches, unless stragglers and deserters are specifically asked for, heh. Wish I had found this hobby when I was 20.

With that said, wouldn't most of you like to have a shot at increasing the rolls with young, eager people more suited to marching 20 miles with you?

Sure, some scouts will not want the level of immersion many of you do, but maybe some will. Some/most may detract from the "immersion" aspect for that weekend. Some may not be interested in Civil War history, some may only make it to become mainstreamers, but you just might plant a seed in others, and sprout a true-blue first class Authentic. How much would that be worth? A weekend here and there with some scouts?

I know if you do not plant seeds, you'll reap no crop.

So I wager that if you are interested in sowing seeds for a new young crop of Authentics, you'd give a weekend to the Boy Scouts, knowing your immersion will likely suffer for the weekend, but that maybe, just maybe, in the future it would not be as hard to fill a company

My .02

[Jim Moffet]

Re: Hobby Motivation Question: Ed vs Immersion

Though I wasn't at Fort York, reading Mr. Berezuk's tale brings back memories for me. It was as a scout that I first encountered enactors @ Valley Forge STATE park (dating myself there!) and as a direct result am here today on this forum. There is a natural and logical connection between scouting and this hobby. Terre Lawson recently pointed out to me that we are now living in an age where, for at least a generation or more, the basic SKILLS required for authentic living history have not been taught to our young: fire building, firearm safety, sewing (hand or machine), axemanship, camping, backpacking, etc. Yes, some kids are exposed to these by parents & families, but a primary place where today's male youth learn any of these skills is through Scouting.

In an era where the hobby has been suffering diminished numbers, I think events like one proposed here offer potential opportunities for recruitment, among both the senior scouts and potentially their leaders. At the very least it would expose them to their American past! As Mr. Lloyd noted, converting many current enactors with pre-concieved notions about THIS hobby into 'campaigners' can be thankless - exposing scouts to authentic campaigning as their first experience could sew seeds that bring forth a fine harvest into the future.

Jim Moffet
First Minnesota, Co. A
Western Brigade
&
Devon Troop 50 (ret)

[Missouri Mule]

Re: Hobby Motivation Question: Ed vs Immersion

Just a thought here . . .

Why just limit this "idea" to Boy Scouts? Why not find a site that will act as a vehicle for this type of "spectator immersion" event?

Don't get me wrong, I love Scouting. As an Eagle Scout, I give the Scouting program a lot of credit for the man that I turned out to be. I just think that the ideas we've been discussing here could be delivered to the public.

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Hobby Motivation Question: Ed vs Immersion

Hallo!

That does an interesting and true point...

For many lads, they enter the Hobby mimicking what they are initially exposed to.
Meaning, what a potential recruit or interested person sees and decides he would like to do is determined by what it is he sees. In perhaps blunt terms, if a lad sees a so-called Farb unit or event, THAT is what he thinks the Hobby is and does. And that is what he joins and equips himself to do.

IMHO, one of the "curses" of the Authenticity Movement or the process of a low rate of lads progressing and evolving to the right-hand letters of the F/M/C/P/H/A Paradigm is that the letters on the left tend to be, are, the more public, visible, and more easily and readily accessible.

Curt

[OldKingCrow]

Re: Hobby Motivation Question: Ed vs Immersion

Hallo!

there are far more lads who are more posers and wannabees who think they have progressed and evolved to what "it takes" to do "okay" at the more History-Heavy immersions.

Curt

This should be a sticky prominently displayed at the top of the Authenticty and Events folder.

[Jim of The SRR]

Re: Hobby Motivation Question: Ed vs Immersion

Let me start by saying, I'm a Scoutmaster. I've have done modern backpacking with scouts of all ages, from 11 to 18. It is a very different experiance hiking/marching with an 11 -12 year old then with a 15-18 year old. That being said, are you thinking any age scout or older scouts (ie Venture program age 14-18). My answer will be different.

Ed Davenport

Ed,

Although I am not a Scoutmaster, I have done presentations for Boy Scots and also presentations for the Venture Scoutmasters at Powderhorn. I found that the older scouts and Scoutmasters are most fascinated by the functionality of 19th century gear vs. the modern gear they are know today. After most presentations, I allow them to come up and handle the gear and most questiosn are focused on field functionality and fieldcraft.
I was shown a Living History 'merit' sheet (not sure of the actual name) for Venture level scouts. I was asked to present how best ths Scouts could accomplish it and get involved in living histories. I broke it down it three ways to get involved (each with an ever increasing commitment):

1. Attend a reenactment. Visit with the reenactors and ask lots of questions.
2. Attend an event where the organizers are open to having a nearby Boyscout camp. Have scheduled opportunities for interaction with the reenactors to watch scenarios/battles, learn 19th c. fieldcraft, take part in hands-on demos with the reenactors. (this could be still be done in a smei-immersive environment by having a time set aside for the Scouts to interact).
I also told them to ask the reenactors to explain their fieldcraft techniques and question any historical inaccuracies that they were aware of and why they were doing it this way.
3. Become a reenactor. Joining a quality group. Purchasing correct gear, etc.

I think many Scouts would be fine reenactors. Many are interested in and skilled at fieldcraft, camping and hiking. Transition to use of 19th c. gear would not be tough for many of them. I would hazard that most of the Venture scouts could out-do most of us in the field in regards to fieldcraft (even with 19th c. gear). I am sure many of you have done presentations to Scouts and if you make it a fun and hands-on presentation you may have seen that most of these boys are fascinated by history and reenacting (and weaponary...lets be honest here...I know I was when I was a lad...and even today). I see them as the best pool of future reenactors.

Jim Butler

[Micah Trent]

Re: Hobby Motivation Question: Ed vs Immersion

Here's what drove this:
The year 2011 marks the bicentennial of the Battle of Tippecanoe and the local historical society is in the throws of preparing for it. During the sesquicentennial in 1961, a troop of Boy Scouts retraced Harrison's route of march from Terre Haute to Prophetstown (that's a long friggin way, for those of you not familiar with Hoosier geography), earning a merit badge in the process.

Where I grew up at in Brandenburg, KY, Boy Scouts did the same thing at one time, up till about twenty years ago, following John Hunt Morgan's route from Garnettsville north to Brandenburg. Upon completing the task, each scout was awarded a merit badge, of course with the scout completing the the task first receiving the highest honor.

One of the scouts that took part in one of those, a close friend of mine, said he loved doing it, however to this day, he thinks it would have been even more memorable if there had been someone there along the way to be an interpreter. He said it was one thing to read a book, to read a guide, to look at maps, but to have someone there with a true undrestanding of what when on at different locations would had been much better.

I cannot picture doing something like this at an immersion event, but I could see it working out very well at a National Park or State Park Living History or something similar to that.

Thanks for bringing this up Wickett, it has made for excellent discussion.

[Spinster]

Re: Hobby Motivation Question: Ed vs Immersion

I think many Scouts would be fine reenactors. Many are interested in and skilled at fieldcraft, camping and hiking. ........... I see them as the best pool of future reenactors.

Jim Butler

Up thread, Jim Moffet referred to my comments at a recent meeting--and Jim Butler says it even more throughly than I did.

Look at our own numbers and count--How many of us were Scouts? And what's more, how many of us doing this end of the hobby were not just Scouts for a few years, but stayed the course, held leadership positions in the troop, became Eagle Scouts or Senior Girl Scouts whose sash would not hold all the merit badges earned?

Who taught us leadership skills?

For many today, the option is no longer available--we can say that children's lives are too busy, but the reality is that adults are not offering the options. We are not teaching our children the skills and fieldcraft. These are not just skills needed to do this hobby--these are skills needed to live this life.

We have a full generation, and well into the second now, that cannot sew, by hand or machine; that cannot make fire, nor keep it; and if they could, they cannot not cook on it; a generation that cannot not rig shelter from rain or cold; render simple medical aid; or make a journey from here to there on foot.

In 1958, a Brownie Scout Leader who did not even have a sewing machine worked to put a bunch of little girls in Civil War dresses for the Centennial. They were not bad little dresses, even by today's research standards--they were cotton, they were back-button, they were hand sewn, and they had plenty of grow tucks in them. I should know, I wore that dress most afternoons in the playyard the next five years, until my arms would no longer fit in the sleeves.

If we are not aiding in teaching these skills to Scouts, who will?

If we do not give them a start in loving history, who will?

[TKlas]

Re: Hobby Motivation Question: Ed vs Immersion

Hi John,

Nice discussion and I would place my stake to help out the young gents, but not at an immersion level event. Even if it is stated before that they will be present, it is not an immersion event or high quality expericne. I know where Eric Fair is coming from as we had an intereting discussion about immersion events and the quality of reenactor present recently. Something like this would detract from the quality of experince many would travel for. Unfortunatley a good portion of the new c/p/h gents that I have seen new to our wing in the past five years or so have a hard time making the standards, knowing soldier skills, and have any assemblance of first person skills. I think we need to raise the level of expectations at some of these events. I can have an event in my home state for a fraction of the cost than to travel 13 plus hours to go to same level of experince that many AC events have had over the years. I know for my busy life and schedule, that is why I am cutting back from traveling for events. The AC event immersion experinces have at time drifted to include more than to truly be a c/p/h event. Just my opinion.

Alright now to helping the young generation. I am all for it on a local event where one on one interation can take place. I have been involved in a progressive unit for many years on a local level that once or twice per year works with those that want to improve and do it right at a living history or reenactment. In fact we are re-activating the group do to some recent preservation developments and the chance to work a few times a year with gents that want to improve, but have no idea from what they see at the mainstream offerings. I think this way we preserve our level of quality event that we want to travel for as and "AC level event" but allow new gents to learn the field craft, proper drill, uniform & equipage, and how to research at a local, low expectation offering.

Thanks John,

Tom