Hobby Motivation Question: Ed vs Immersion

[robwall1861]

Re: Hobby Motivation Question: Ed vs Immersion

Being an Eagle Scout myself, I would attend as it would educate the scouts (and hopefully recruit a few:)....)

My .02

[briangauthier]

Re: Hobby Motivation Question: Ed vs Immersion

Hi all,

Reading this thread and the plethora of helpful and unhelpful ones, I am struck by how similar this thread is to another one planted a few months ago about unique and interesting new ways of doing a living history. I think the moderators have nailed it.

I teach high school history in rural Mississippi and fight a daily battle of attrition in which I attempt to show history to my students through lenses that are too often focused on ipods and cell phones. This thread has touched on everything from preserving the "Authentic" side to recruiting to reminiscences of times gone by. If we, as "reenactors" are to spend our time on this forum telling EACH OTHER, who by definition know more about the Civil War than the average bear, than why shouldn't this new, unique, and innovative technique be implemented?

Our ranks are not getting any thicker, our ages are not declining, and the perception of reenactors to the public is not improving(drastically). Aside from focusing on this hobby, et. al, why not focus on what brings us, the AC family together: the love of learning. We desire others to have our knowledge about the Civil War. Lets teach them to appreciate what we've already come to love. Personally, this is the best idea I've heard in 3 years on the AC.

My .05 cents,

[Johnny Lloyd]

Re: Hobby Motivation Question: Ed vs Immersion

Understood the responses... but I'm still not convinced about the 'recruiting' aspect of the hobby.

If you had to recruit anyone, Boy Scouts would be the ideal, though...;)

Okay, soapbox about some of the stuff I have read on here:

Wasn't there a big movement awhile back to NOT recruit, but to let those interested in coming over to the authentic side of the hobby do so for themselves? Is there a reversal here by the group?

Kinda reminds me of a certain fraternal organization's mantra- 'For those that are interested in joining, let those that are willing ask about it themselves on their own free will'... the best and most dedicated reenactors are made of this.

Whenever I hear somone say something to the effect of 'the authentic hobby is getting so much older'... if it is true, then I see no big worry about this. Perhaps it is because our hobby appeals to a certain segment of individuals, and a smaller segment of that segment at that? Perhaps it is because younger people on average cannot afford the expenses involved to do these events. I know I spend about $500 or more doing one quality event (I usually try to make 2 or 3 along with various adjunct events per year), not including detailed equipment needed for that event. The more detailed we get with this hobby and different locations we fly/drive long distances to attend, the more we pay. Maybe this is hurting numbers along with other factors (other periods, lack-of-interest, kids are more into video games, etc) ???

I don't worry about numbers or age, though. I'd rather have 5 committed/older reenactors at an event than 20+ half-hearted/younger ones.

Off soapbox...:o

I personally would be more inclined to attend an event with 'embedded Scouts' if it was not too far from where I lived and I didn't have to put up too much time and money getting to the event. Perhaps this is a economics-based question for me since I have to spend a penny to get to events, therefore I want to spend my money on ones that I know I will enjoy and see my wonderful friends and comrades at? This might be a factor in who attends/who doesn't attend such an event.

[Co. B Rhode Island]

Re: Hobby Motivation Question: Ed vs Immersion

Ed,

Although I am not a Scoutmaster, I have done presentations for Boy Scots and also presentations for the Venture Scoutmasters at Powderhorn. I found that the older scouts and Scoutmasters are most fascinated by the functionality of 19th century gear vs. the modern gear they are know today.


I think many Scouts would be fine reenactors. Many are interested in and skilled at fieldcraft, camping and hiking. Transition to use of 19th c. gear would not be tough for many of them. I would hazard that most of the Venture scouts could out-do most of us in the field in regards to fieldcraft (even with 19th c. gear). I am sure many of you have done presentations to Scouts and if you make it a fun and hands-on presentation you may have seen that most of these boys are fascinated by history and reenacting (and weaponary...lets be honest here...I know I was when I was a lad...and even today). I see them as the best pool of future reenactors.

Jim Butler

Jim,

I agree 100%. Most scout of all ages I have presented to, are very interested in the gear and techniques. My concern is that proposal was for an event that had lots of marching and overnight picket duty. I believe that older scouts would enjoy this and do quite well. Younger scouts (ie 11-13 yo) would not have fun, at least after the first couple of miles, and would not want to continue this event or return for another event.

Ed

[LibertyHallVols]

Re: Hobby Motivation Question: Ed vs Immersion

Johnny,

A couple of thoughts:
1) Re: Recruiting - I think the interest generated by such an experience on the part of the scouts would naturally lead a select few of them to join the hobby. However, I think that is a fringe benefit of such an event (its the side dish, not the entre). As the thread title implies, I am looking to find out if we are ONLY motivated by events that are "For Us", or are some/all/most/a few of us on the "right hand letters" (as Curt would say) of the hobby motivated by teaching or exposing folks to aspects of history they'd never contemplated.

2) re: Local - Yes, I agree. I'll travel 10 hours for an event with something special in it for me and to experience it with my pards. I'd be less likely to do so to be embedded with a scout troop or them with us.

FWIW - My hypothetical scenario does not involve inviting scouts to an EFUBU event... rather, incorporating us hobbyists into a learning event organized specifically to teach scouts about some element of the life of the ACW soldier. The "event" would be structured using a lot of the principles that we use in EFUBU events, but it would not "be" an EFUBU. Involving "outsiders" in an EFUBU event would be a spectacular flop. Also, I would never advocate a "bait and switch" where an event was advertised as an EFUBU, only to have the reenactors learn when they show up that they'll actually be running a class for the public or some "non-reenactor" group.

Lemme say this, also (to the group) - The more people that are intersted and studing the Civil War, the better! Whether they join us, the mainstream, or never touch a musket in their lives. Whether we WANT to inspire folks to learn more is our individual choice. However, if we, with all of our passion for the topic, knowledge, and experience are not CAPABLE of inspiring folks, then we have a big problem.

[Hank Trent]

Re: Hobby Motivation Question: Ed vs Immersion

Wasn't there a big movement awhile back to NOT recruit, but to let those interested in coming over to the authentic side of the hobby do so for themselves? Is there a reversal here by the group?

For myself, I don't see this as recruiting at all. I wouldn't care if the scouts or any newbies ever did it again or joined the hobby, though of course they'd be welcome to. To me, it'd be more like just another way to reenact with people who are enthusiastic about history. Sure, there will be some scouts who aren't. But then, as I mentioned above, there are some reenactors who aren't--even at EBUFU events.

Because it's new and different for the scouts, I think the mere novelty will make them (or any non-reenactor) more enthusiastic about trying to do a good job and getting the most out of a one-time thing. Newbies are also more ready to adapt to the situation and follow the lead of those around them, whereas long-time reenactors already know what they want to do and will try to do it regardless of the rules.

Perhaps this is a economics-based question for me since I have to spend a penny to get to events, therefore I want to spend my money on ones that I know I will enjoy and see my wonderful friends and comrades at? This might be a factor in who attends/who doesn't attend such an event.

See, that's the difference. The "enjoy" part I agree with.

But "seeing my wonderful friends and comrades" is worth about zero to me, unless my "wonderful friends and comrades" also are there primarily for the purpose of reenacting history together. If a stranger is there for that purpose, then I count him or her immediately as a friend for the duration of the event.

I could never see the point of traveling halfway across the country just to hang out, drink, and shoot the breeze about modern stuff. But I see reenactors who enjoy that so much they'd apparently rather do it than reenact. Or, to them, it is reenacting, because that's how they define EBUFU events: march, fight, follow military protocol, and when you're off duty, hang out socializing with your friends on site, being farby if you want.

I think it depends what direction you're coming from, how noticeable it is. I've returned from EBUFU events and thought, well, that was okay, but it wasn't up to what I'm used to. While others come back and say, wow, that was really accurate. And yet we were in the exact same area of the same event. (Doesn't happen so much any more, because I've learned how to pick events and roles better.) We were apparently used to different experiences, as a baseline for comparison.

The scouts, or actually any newbies I've reenacted with, don't have that pattern down yet. If you reenact straight through, they tend to also, which I find a much better use of my travel investment.

Hank Trent
hanktrent@gmail.com

[TKlas]

Re: Hobby Motivation Question: Ed vs Immersion

Hi Johnny,

Actually I do not think per say we are recruiting but working with guys that have the desire to improve but do not know how to or are not pushed to do better. When I got into the authentic wing of the hobby, I was lucky to have several gents whom were prominent in the Mudsills that answered many of my questions and took time at a local level (research, soldier skills, field craft, uniform & equipage study) to work with us - 1998 ish. Our group did this for some time as well but drifted over the years with busy lives and like most people on this forum, we want to attend better events.

The problem many of us are starting to see (it has become worse over the past few years) is the lack of skill transfer from one generation of detailed orientated living historians to some of the newer gents attending events posted here on the AC. I am afraid their has been a push for numbers by some and it waters down the quality of an event, your mess/unit, etc. They are used to mainstream events, mentalities, expectations and so called campaigners at times are not there in my opinion. I was chuckling on another forum last year that an event I was involved in had strict guidelines for rifle-muskets. I was challenged over the idea that it was okay for guys to bring a non-defarbed musket to an event and that many have been to all sorts of EBUFU events and have never owned a defarbed rifle-musket. Where did this mentality come from? Yikes! That is not the c/p/h way I learned from nor my comrades in the units I have been involved with over the years.

This is the reason many of us are taking a small portion of time to work with guys that want to make the next step in their impression and to teach the overall skills as we old gents were guided back in the mid to late 90's on a local level. It is not about numbers gents, but the quality of overall impression you have. So to answer you question Johnny, yes it is a reversal in approach for some of us. Some of us do not mind a few times per year working with gents that want to improve and need some guidance on a local level. Many of us were brought into the authentic wing of the hobby this way and our way of re-paying the favor.

All the best,

Tom

[briangauthier]

Re: Hobby Motivation Question: Ed vs Immersion

Johnny,




Lemme say this, also (to the group) - The more people that are intersted and studing the Civil War, the better! Whether they join us, the mainstream, or never touch a musket in their lives. Whether we WANT to inspire folks to learn more is our individual choice. However, if we, with all of our passion for the topic, knowledge, and experience are not CAPABLE of inspiring folks, then we have a big problem.

Hi all,

I want to point out that what John has said is the crux of what I'm saying. We should be inspiring each other and the people who don't know about this little vein of reenacting/LH/EFUBU/hardcore to want to learn more about history. Going back to my class for example, I set up a small camp as a demo about the beginning of the war. I had a tent, lantern, extra socks, the kitchen sink, etc. for them to see. I was specifically setting up to explain the beginning of the war for them. They were hooked. They had no idea their history teacher cared so much about his subject. I later plan on showing up again, this time with hardly anything but some grungy duds and a bedroll to explain that by the middle/end of the war, this is what soldiers might have looked like. The reason I say this is because these kids are older scout age(14-18) and they loved it so much, I have a Junior attending my Sophomore history class just because he CAN'T GET ENOUGH OF THE CIVIL WAR! If this isn't what we are all about, that is, inspiring the youth to study for themselves, than why are we here? Perhaps a different question for a different thread, but I wanted to follow up. Feel free to pick apart.

Most Sincerely,

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Hobby Motivation Question: Ed vs Immersion

Hallo!

"Recruiting." As a noun or as a verb?

IMHO...

Because lads have differing Mental Pictures and different levels of "time in grade," even among lads here we can see different and differing view of what "recruiting" is or should be.

Meaning, one can find lads who in their stage of personal development (still) believe that the so-called Farb and Mainstream Community is just misguided and ignorant- and that through "missionary work" and "leading by example" "we" can set their feet upon the Correct Path and "change" them into so-called C/P'ers or even H/A'ers.
Versus lads who ask what does going to a so-called F or M event with your
"authentic" kit do other than serve as a walking/talking poster that either drives uninterested lads away muttering under their breath or allows the more bold lads looking for progression to the Right Hand Letters life to have a contact they cannot find through the power of sites such as the AC?

IMHO still, the "C/P/H/A" Community is at a visual, point-of-contact disadvantage because the "best and brightest" of that segment of the ACW is harder for the outsider/potential recruit to seek out and find- AND for many it IS the 1st Annual Fall Foliage Tour and Apple Cider Festival in their city park is what they see, go to, and get recruited into.

I believe "anyone" with a desire, interest, and "proper attitude" is a potential worthwhile recruit. A Boy Scout/Explorer Scout could be one of those, maybe. I theory they would bring a camping, backpacking/hiking, outdoorsy "skill set" of sorts to the mix that fewer and fewer
American youths know anything about.
But on the other side of the coin, they fall victim to the same "negatives" ANY high school lad does- what to do in the hobby when you cannot field as a soldier when under 18 or say 16, and have limited or no resources when it comes to a hobby that is expensive and competes with the demands of Modern Life in terms of school, girls, cars, clothes, DVD's, and video games?

And last... why is it, really, that one can go to so-called F, FM, and M events in 2009 and see the EXACT same things in terms of clothing, kit, arms, AND activities done in the same way as they were in 1999, 1989, or 1979?
IMHO, because "reenacting" reenacts itself, and purpetuates its culture, tradition, and even its own "hobby history." And, the lads that progress, evolve, and move toward and into the Right Hand Letters of "C/P/H/A" often evolve up the Developmental Pyramid and being unable to go any "higher" burn-out to either quit, migrate to a different era of Reenacting, or turn around, backwards, and go toward the "Left Hand Letter" events.
That is why so many so-called F and M lads look and function exactly the same as they did in 1989 and we find the vary same makers and vendors (plus clones) in those events' Sutlers Row as we did in 1989 selling the same wares. (Yes, there is trickle-down, and we find lads who have "progressive kit" and maybe even a piece or two of "authentic" Premium Maker or Designer Label kit.)

Not that this is an "us versus them" argument. Rather, IMHO, the further "strives," "evolves," and "progresses" toward the Right Hand Letters- the more we particular, if not peculiar, and unique sets of problems in expanding the quality and quantity of that segment of the ACW Community as it "needs" to bring in new folks at the bottom end to replace the highly knowledge, experienced, and skilled "veterans" who are evolving into extinction faster than the "hobbies" behind them can evolve.

But, I think this discussion (albeit a good one) has itself evolved beyond a feeling for the merits or demerits of just holding a "living history" event for some Boy Scouts.

Others' mileage will vary...

Curt
Discussin' Fool Mess

[Johnny Lloyd]

Re: Hobby Motivation Question: Ed vs Immersion

All:

Yes, it would cease to be a EBUFU event and into something more along the lines of a semi-immersion event with the factor of Boy Scouts involved. Good you explained that difference to me, Mr. Wickett.

For me, I would travel to a semi-immersion event only if I could drive and it could be cheaper to attend so I may still have enought time off/money to attend EBUFUs during the season. Extra long distances are reserved for EBUFUs. Other's mileage may vary... no judgement by me upon those that differ.

Yes, agreed Hank, there are quite a few so-called "hardcores" that have an extremely difficult time staying in-period at EBUFUs and this can hurt a quality event. It is how well we all govern ourselves as well as how quickly we control out-of-period activities as to how 'well' we deal with that. For me, getting 'into the moment' and staying in it is easier when I see things around me

I will admit that there is a certain nobility-of-effort in introducing the hobby to newcomers. As I have said before, Scouts would be ideally open to this. Agreed there.

So I to clarify my previous posts, I suppose, I'd attend an event like this only if it wasn't too pricey in time/money budget so as to not interfere with my attendance at other progressive events.:o

All the best- Johnny Lloyd:wink_smil

[Johan Steele]

Re: Hobby Motivation Question: Ed vs Immersion

Venture Scouts, I believe is the term used to describe some young Boy Scouts who don the uniform and gear of the 2nd Wisconsin. They're quite good and better drilled than most. They look the part and from what I've seen put all the enthusiasm and concentration HS kids can give.

To me a large point of what we do is teaching and keeping alive the past. With no "audience" or public it's only practice. I avoid those powder burning events where playing war seems the norm a historical march along an actual route used would be nirvana for me. And the opportunity to include and possibly bring some enthusiastic youth into the hobby can only add one more positive note to it.

I've marched beside some in the past and would have no problem doing so again... that begs the question of if I can ever march again or whether I will have to find an impression that allows me to avoid prolonged walking.

[Camp_Randall]

Re: Hobby Motivation Question: Ed vs Immersion

I hadn't ever considered reenacting until an Assistant Scoutmaster offered an outing to the 140 Gettysburg. We attended local events the year prior and I was hooked. If it hadn't been for the BSA, I would not be a reenactor at all today.

As a recruiting tool, it can be useful but one shouldn't set their expectations too high. Out off the 20 or so scouts that participated in the troop's trip to Gettysburg, and of the 5 or 6 of us who afterwords began attending events not connected with the Scouts afterward, I'm the only one still reenacting. Most Scouts will only have fleeting interests in the Civil War and move on to the next activity or hobby when the weekend ends. We can't expect Scouts to get out of a modern mindset. While there may a few who will 'get' it, others are there to hang out with friends with a historical background. (In short, mainstream reenacting) If you go into it with the idea to teach young men a little bit about the Civil War, then it will be a successful endeavor. Scouts are willing to learn and the outdoors are the natural place for them. If you view the BSA as a crop for the next generation of Authentic converts, then there will be disappointment. Those that stick with it are just a bonus.

Tim Surprenant
ONV

[flattop32355]

Re: Hobby Motivation Question: Ed vs Immersion

I would go with #3.

[Adam L]

Re: Hobby Motivation Question: Ed vs Immersion

I look at this question as would I rather expose these kids to the most accurate version of civil war reenacting to help them have a better understanding or not. Plenty of events out there there is room for entry level authentics too. We all can't be perfect on day 1 of learning about it and no one should be upset with people who want to learn more.

[GWagner]

Re: Hobby Motivation Question: Ed vs Immersion

I deleted this post. I am sorry it offended anyone...that was not the intention. I am sorry I ever got involved in the discussion.