Florida research help please

[RebelRouser]

Gentlemen,

I am a member of a mainstream unit in Florida (the 4th FL Co G). I, along with several of my pards, have decided to progress with our impressions and have formed the "7 lbs. of Bacon Mess" within our company. We hope to form an example for others to follow, to correctly educate the public, and to honor our ancestors by portraying them as accurately as is possible. We have met resistance but are still moving forward with our portrayals. Several of us have lurked here for some time picking through the information and using it as leads for more of our own research. I post all this to give you a background for my question to follow.

Does anyone have a lead on the history, specifically, of Co. G of the 4th Fl VI Regt.? I have read the "Civil War Journals And Letters Of Sergeant Washington Ives" (I realize that he was from Co C but he gives a good overview on the entire Regt,) several times but have been unable to answer a few specific questions about the formation of the unit.

1) Was Co G really called "The Marion Rifle Guards"?
and...
2) Did the county of Marion completely outfit the unit in gray wool as they were formed so that they would have a "uniform" appearance?
and finally...
3) Since our unit used the Mississippi rifle as a standard arm until 1864, was there a specific set of accoutrements (i.e. the 1839 pattern cartridge box) issued with this musket?

These are claims that are made by our former commander but I can find no documentation to support them. Any leads or foresight into Co. G would be greatly appreciated. Our goal is to become an island of progression within the waters of the mainstream.

[OldKingCrow]

Re: Florida research help please

Seek out Lewis G Schmidt's works: "Civil War in Florida - A Military History."

The best and most immediate oppty to do what you say you want do is:

To do the Friday / Friday night Olustee pre-battle gimmick with Joe Gangler and the Flat Landers Mess. Seek out the details here on this site.......there may be folks at that little event to talk FL CS history whilst layin' in the dirt where it actually happened.

CR

[RebelRouser]

Re: Florida research help please

Chris,

Thank you for your advice. I will get a copy of Schmidt's book on Florida to further my research. Some of our mess plans to participate in J. Gangler's event but others have already committed to a multi-day campaign march to the battlefield. Hopefully, as a mess, we can learn from each other during and after the event. I hope to see you there.

[PenPusher]

Re: Florida research help please

You may be interested in the following link which describes the flag carried by the Marion Rifle Guards.

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=CtgEdnuzl0kC&lpg=PA130&dq=%22Marion%20Rifle%20Guards%22&pg=PA130#v=onepage&q=%22Marion%20Rifle%20Guards%22&f=false

[RebelRouser]

Re: Florida research help please

Thank you for the link! I googled the marion rifle guards and only got a Calf. unit. I never thought about google books. That answers one question and confirms part of the history of our unit that I have been given. I can add this to my growing list of documentation.

[PetePaolillo]

Re: Florida research help please

Brian,

You can try contacting the Florida Department of military affairs and more specifically, The Florida Guard online, The official site of the Florida National Guard.

http://www.dma.state.fl.us/

http://www.floridaguard.army.mil/history/army.aspx?id=296

Aother good source of info is the Florida Historical Society. They have a good time stamp page, which shows where the 4th Florida was active during the war . It might shed some light on where and how they were supplied.

http://www.myfloridahistory.org/library/flahistory/civilwar

SEPTEMBER 13, 1861 The Washington County Invincibles were inducted into Confederate service as Company H, 4th Florida Infantry regiment. The soldiers will be stationed at Fernandina.

May 21, 1862 The 4th Florida Infantry regiment left for Corinth, Mississippi, today.

DECEMBER 28, 1862 - Soldiers with the Florida 4th Infantry regiment were engaged in fighting at Lebanon Pike, Tennessee, today.

DECEMBER 31, 1862 - The Confederate Army of Tennessee, under the command of General Braxton E. Bragg, engaged a Federal army under the command of General William Rosecrans at Murfreesboro (Stone’s River), Tennessee. Although the Confederates had heavy losses, their assault against the Union forces was successful. At the end of the day, both armies faced each other across the open battlefield. Florida units participating in this battle, which lasted until January 3, 1863, were: Florida 1st (Reorganized) Infantry Regiment,Florida 3rd Infantry Regiment,Florida 4th Infantry Regiment


July 12, 1863 The 1st, 3rd and 4th Florida Infantry Regiments were part of the fighting near Jackson, Mississippi. According to official reported, these units, plus the 47th Georgia and Cobb’s Battery, took 200 prisoners and the colors of the 28th, 41st, and 53rd Illinois Regiments.

SEPTEMBER 18, 1863 - Confederate General Braxton E. Bragg (Army of Tennessee) made the opening move in the Battle of Chickamauga campaign when he moved most of his forces out of Ringgold, Georgia, into Tennessee. Skirmishes broke out all along the line separating Union and Confederate positions. Florida units which participated in this epic battle were: Florida Marion Artillery, Florida 1st Cavalry Regiment, Florida 1st (Reorganized) Infantry regiment, Florida 3rd Infantry Regiment, Florida 4th Infantry Regiment, Florida 6th Infantry Regiment & the Florida 7th Infantry Regiment. The first full day of fighting would commence tomorrow.

NOVEMBER 1, 1863 - The beginning of November 1863 saw the following Florida units on duty with the Confederate Army of Tennessee that was engaged in siege operations around Chattanooga: Florida Marion Artillery,Florida 1st Cavalry Regiment ,Florida 1st (Reorganized) Infantry Regiment ,Florida 3rd Infantry Regiment ,Florida 4th Infantry Regiment ,Florida 6th Infantry Regiment ,Florida 7th Infantry regiment

NOVEMBER 23, 1863 - The Battle of Chattanooga started today and continued through the 25th. Florida units, attached to the Army of Tennessee commanded by General Braxton E. Bragg, were the: Florida Marion Artillery ,Florida First Cavalry Regiment ,Florida 1st (Reorganized) Infantry Regiment ,Florida 3rd Infantry regiment ,Florida 4th Infantry Regiment ,Florida 6th Infantry Regiment ,Florida 7th Infantry Regiment.The 1st, 3rd and 6th Regiments were in the main Confederate force of Missionary Ridge, while the 4th and 7th Infantry Regiments and the 1st Florida Cavalry were on picket duty in the Chattanooga Valley.

NOVEMBER 25, 1863 - Florida units took heavy casualties in the Battle of Chattanooga. The 4th Florida Infantry, which entered the battle with 172 men, reportedly lost 154 killed, wounded or missing. The Florida 1st Cavalry (Dismounted) had 200 men listed ready for duty when the battle started and preliminary reported indicated that 167 men were killed wounded or missing. Florida’s other units, notably the 1st, 3rd and 6th Infantry regiment were among the last to vacate the Confederate battle lines and fall back to the Army of Tennessee winter quarters at Dalton, Georgia.


January 2, 1864 The Confederate Congress has approved the following Floridians as adjutants in Florida regiments and battalions: James B. Johnson, 5th Infantry Regiment , R. J. Reid, 2nd Infantry Regiment, W. McR. Jordan, 3rd Infantry Battalion, B. F. Parker, 4th Infantry Battalion, James O. Owens, 6th Infantry Battalion, George Dawson, 7th Infantry Regiment, F. Philips, 1st Cavalry Regiment; C. B. Paslay, 7th Infantry Regiment

FEBRUARY 23, 1864 The 4th Florida Infantry regiment was consolidated today with the 1st Florida Cavalry, Dismounted, in winter quarters at Dalton, Georgia. The consolidation was needed after both units suffered tremendous losses in fighting at Missionary Ridge, Tennessee.

July 11, 1864 The following Florida units were participants in the Battle of Atlanta (July-September 1864): Florida Marion Artillery , Florida First Cavalry Regiment , Florida 1st (Reorganized) Infantry Regiment , Florida 3rd Infantry Regiment , Florida 4th Infantry Regiment , Florida 6th Infantry Regiment , Florida 7th Infantry Regiment

July 22, 1864 The following Florida units participate in the ill-fated Battle of Atlanta on this date: Florida Marion Artillery , Florida 1st Cavalry Regiment , Florida 1st (Reorganized) Infantry Regiment , Florida 3rd Infantry Regiment Florida 4th Infantry Regiment , Florida 6th Infantry regiment , Florida 7th Infantry Regiment (not directly involved

July 28, 1864 The following units from Confederate Florida participated in the Battle of Ezra Church as Major General John Bell Hood attempted to break Union General William Tecumseh Sherman’s siege of Atlanta:
Florida 1st Cavalry Regiment , Florida 1st (Reorganized) Infantry Regiment , Florida 3rd Infantry Regiment , Florida 4th Infantry Regiment , Florida 6th Infantry Regiment , Florida 7th Infantry Regiment , Florida Marion Artillery continued to serve the Confederacy in the Siege of Atlanta as part of the Hoxton Battalion, Artillery, 1st Corps, Army of Tennessee.

AUGUST 31, 1864 The following Florida units participated in Confederate General John Bell Hood’s ill-fated attempt to break the lines of General William T. Sherman at Jonesboro (south of Atlanta): Florida Marion Artillery, Florida 1st Cavalry Regiment, Florida 1st (Reorganized) Infantry Regiment, Florida 3rd Infantry Regiment, Florida 4th Infantry Regiment, Florida 6th Infantry Regiment, Florida 7th Infantry Regiment.


MARCH 19, 1865 Florida troops were fighting under the command of General Joseph E. Johnston at Bentonville, North Carolina, in an effort to prevent Federal General William T. Sherman and Ulysses S. Grant from linking their armies together. Florida units include the 3rd Infantry Regiment, 4th Infantry Regiment, 6th Infantry Regiment, and the 7th Infantry Regiment.

[PetePaolillo]

Re: Florida research help please

Brian Here is a website listing the Field and staff officers of the 4th Florida and also each Company roster. Found through FSU

http://www.psy.fsu.edu/~thompson/cw/4-fl-inf/fl-4th-inf.html

Company G roster is below:

http://www.psy.fsu.edu/~thompson/cw/4-fl-inf/4-fl-inf-g.html

Here are the emails for the two gentleman who provided this . An email to them might get you some more needed and specific info.

Jim Thoma JETGATOR@aol.com
Ron Thomas thompson@psy.fsu.edu

Hope this helps you and hope that we will see you at some upcoming events.

[RebelRouser]

Re: Florida research help please

Thanks Pete!

You guys are great!

I'll look you up at Olustee.

[floridawar]

Re: Florida research help please

Howdy,

The link Alan T. posted above on google books is awesome! A reading shows the kind lady making up "suits" for soldiers. I notice she generally mentions making bosums for shirts [Battle shirts?], and taking the trimming off of a coat to trim a shirt...

There are a couple of images of 4th Florida enlisted men in the early war period. Lewis Gay wears a plain jacket. Wash Ives wears a frock coat or jacket without trim.

photo of Pvt. Lewis F. Gay, Co. F, 4th: [not noted here, but according to a description of this image given in "Civil War Times Illustrated," Gay told his family it was taken in Gainesville in 1861...]

http://ibistro.dos.state.fl.us/uhtbin/cgisirsi/x/x/0/5?library=PHOTO&item_type=PHOTOGRAPH&searchdata1=lewis%20f.%20gay

photo of Washington M. Ives, 4th Fla. at Chattanooga, TN, 1862:

http://ibistro.dos.state.fl.us/uhtbin/cgisirsi/PThxM8PoMi/STA-FLA/249080058/9

There will likely be useful data to you in the compiled military service records of the company commanders of Co. G...

[FloridaConscript]

Re: Florida research help please

Caleb Huse making an impact early in 1861 if you go by Lewis Gay's belt buckle....

[Ross L. Lamoreaux]

Re: Florida research help please

Brian, tell Joe and Walter to get up and give you a hand with some research!

[OldKingCrow]

Re: Florida research help please

Chris,

Thank you for your advice. I will get a copy of Schmidt's book on Florida to further my research. Some of our mess plans to participate in J. Gangler's event but others have already committed to a multi-day campaign march to the battlefield. Hopefully, as a mess, we can learn from each other during and after the event. I hope to see you there.

Focusing on Floridians rolling up into the AOT as a sole impression is going to limit your involvement in the events associated with this community. Additionally, that specific impression is beyond limiting at FL events as the unit never saw action in FL.

Your assembly of young men are doing a commendable job as I have told you in the field. I also pointed you to the Salt River Rifles (SCAR) and Jim Butler (the artful calling card) as a leader who can help you along the way to zen authenticity (and from what I have briefly witnessed your "mess" seems to have the material part pretty well covered). Again, as we discussed in person and with your Capt, the most important thing is to get to more historically representative events. I laid out the invite to a few if you recall. The best way to prepare for that rather than laser beam focus on a particular unit is in terms of a Plain Everyday Common CS impression, the specifics of which are easily researched here with minimal effort.

Get to the events. Get with Jim Butler / SCAR.

CR

[jomang]

Re: Florida research help please

Brian et.al.

Researching the uniforms of the 4th Florida Regiment has not been altogether definitive without assumption regarding their first issue. The Ives journal first mention of any issue describes on September 12, 1862 "I have just drawn a pair of kersey pants... one coat of the same material as Mr. Burtchaetts' suit." Then by definition, does this mean the issue was wool which documents the first uniform standards we were given to believe was the uniform of the 4th Florida and the Regiment wore this up to Oct of '63? It is confusing to determine which definition of kersey he refers to until reading the citation of the next.vSo, without sounding inept, I have found little that is definitive regarding the color and makeup of that material in the 1st official issue cited.

October 21, 1863 Ives writes “Our regiment has just drawing some excellent clothing. Jackets of kersey, blue cuffs, pants, worsted indescribable…

Also referring to this second issue - October 31, 1863 “Coats are dark and light gray (mostly with blue collars and cuffs) pants are light and dark gray similar goods to the jacket. But what kind of goods it is, I never have seen or heard… It is a worsted a cross between cashmere and jeans.” So, this is Columbus Depot issue that Walter refers to?


Joe Kurtright
7lbs of Bacon Mess
4th Florida Co. G

[RebelRouser]

Re: Florida research help please

Joe,

I am inclined to agree with you. To make sure we are on the same page:

September 12, 1862 "I have just drawn a pair of kersey pants... one coat of the same material as Mr. Burtchaetts' suit."

This is the issue that you believe to be wool kersey. The next issue, according to Ives, is:

October 31st, 1863, "The army has just drawn comfortable winter clothing and blankets. The coats are dark and light gray (mostly with blue collars and cuffs) the pants light and dark gray, similar goods to the jackets, but what kind of goods it is, I never have seen or heard, (I don't know) or even a person who could tell what kind of goods it is except it is worsted, a cross between cashmere and jeans, very warm and durable."

The 1st issue is interesting in that the pants are kersey (wool?) and the coat is of a different material. Since he uses a reference to a suit cloth, could this be a better quality wool? Maybe broadcloth?

In the next issue, the cloth is described as a cross between cashmere (wool) and jeans (cotton) that he has never seen before (so it's not kersey or broadcloth). Sounds like gray jean wool to me.

Sooo... for an entire year were the boys in kersey wool? This would mean that they fought up to and including the battle of Chickamauga before getting jean wool uniforms.

Of course, we should be striving for a mid-war generic AoT impression to portray at events, but this is the type of information that we need to write and DOCUMENT our unit's history for the mainstream naysayers. I appreciate your take on this subject. I am finally starting to be able to put together a time line that makes sense to me.

Gentlemen, being new to CW research this specific leads me to ask you all if any of this makes sense to you veterans or, am I way off base with this line of thinking?

[Ross L. Lamoreaux]

Re: Florida research help please

I remember a similiar conversation with Keith Kohl about 10 years ago on this topic. You've dug up the same research we used back then to go with the conclusion of wool kersey for earlier war and jeancloth for mid to late war. I'm sure there is something more definitive yet to be found, but thats what we have right now. But you also have to take into account the other companies of the regiment, like Co K, who were in a mix of citizen's dress and commutation clothing while serving as the Sunny South Guards at Fort Brooke in Tampa (stop by the History Center sometime so I can show you a letter we have from Cpt Lesley regarding the upcoming elections for the regiment). The Washigton Ives journal is the most definitive item yet to go with the conclusion that at least some elements, if not most, of the regiment were clothed in some variant of the "Columbus Depot" jacket. The comment "mostly blue cuffs and collars" has been interpreted by some, including me and Archie Marshall, that not all Columbus products were trimmed in blue. That may or may not be the case for the 4th, but you stand a good chance of being closer to what they have by obtaining a good CS jacket, with or without the trim.