Florida research help please

[FlaCpl.]

Re: Florida research help please

Don't worry folks ( especially you Ross) I've been helping out, just not on the Ac.

Walter Cook

[FlaCpl.]

Re: Florida research help please

On further note on the Columbus Depot/Army of Tenn. shell jacket. Cassahmere may also be a suitable alternative to jean cloth. In a old issue of CW Historian a reenactor had a chance to look at an original, and he was saying this jacket was made out of casamere. Which incidently is pointed to in the Ives journal quote we continue to glean.

Walter Cook

[joey12thga]

Re: Florida research help please

Chris,

Some of our mess plans to participate in J. Gangler's event but others have already committed to a multi-day campaign march to the battlefield..

I wish somebody would let me know for sure because I have had no firm commitments from any of the 4th FL yet, just some inquiries.

[RebelRouser]

Re: Florida research help please

I would just like to thank you all for helping me to form a new hypothesis on the the historical uniforms of the 4th Florida. Walter and I were working together but it seems as though we had developed tunnel vision. This led us to believe that the 4th had never fought in Kersey and that Keith Kohl was completely wrong in that assumption. On the contrary, it seems that Walter and I have some crow to eat.

The fresh viewpoint that you all provided here made all the difference and finally caused the "lightbulb" to turn on in my head. Joe and I finally figured out together what Ross and Keith had decided 10 years ago. Talk about reinventing the wheel...

I will continue to search the archives, Footnotes, etc. and will post my findings in the next few weeks.

The sad truth is, I realized that it is inaccurate for the 4th to be portrayed as fighting in their home state of Florida at all but, that's another topic for another day.

Again, thanks to you all!

[OldKingCrow]

Re: Florida research help please

In terms of CS material culture alone:

I am not certain CS history is most accurately represented by inferring mass uniformity of the AOT (at any point in its chronology) supported by a single reference of a soldier(s) drawing a particular garment(s) any more than by representing with certainty Ives' blue cuff'd / collar'd jacket was a "Columbus Depot".

[Ross L. Lamoreaux]

Re: Florida research help please

In terms of CS material culture alone:

I am not certain CS history is most accurately represented by inferring mass uniformity of the AOT (at any point in its chronology) supported by a single reference of a soldier(s) drawing a particular garment(s) any more than by representing with certainty Ives' blue cuff'd / collar'd jacket was a "Columbus Depot".

Absolutely right Chris. When it comes to material culture, there is hardly a regiment that served on either side that we will ever know "everything", but particularly so with Florida regiments. Some we have a better idea than others, but thats one of the "joys" of what we do. Theres just not alot out there when it comes to detailed record keeping and research material, but that shouldn't keep us from digging and wanting to know more. Sometimes its a little nugget like a journal, sometimes its a lost piece of paper in an archive somewhere. The founders of your company may not have had the best resources and best makers of clothing when setting out to replicate the unit, but there was indeed some scholarly research being done many years ago, but as will all good units, we have to evolve and change as more comes to light. Brian, you're well on the way in this journey, as many of us have learned over the years, keep reading, keep learning, and keep an open mind. You've got some good guys with Joe and Walter around, as I know they sincerely want to improve as a whole, so keep going with that momentum. As Chris stated above, its hard to cloth and equip a company of reenactors based solely on one journal reference, but its a start in the never-ending quest for more info. And I did mean it earlier when I offered to show you some stuff at the History Center when you're available. We do have some 4th Florida items from Cpt Lesley of company K that you'll find of interest.

[PetePaolillo]

Re: Florida research help please

I sent this info to Brian, But you all may be interested in it as well so I thought I would post it here. You can gather a lot of info from Microfilm. Here is the website and below is a the browse link for Florida units.

http://www.civilwarmicrofilm.com/

http://www.civilwarmicrofilm.com/site/viewer/surnameIndex.php

It is a pay by month membership to research Microfilm. It has The Compiled Service Records which are transcriptions of the original muster rolls and returns created during the Civil War. They contain some of the most detailed information available about individual Civil War soldiers and show enlistment dates and ranks, woundings, captures, imprisonments, hospitalizations, and more. Often, they also include original Civil War documents such as pay vouchers, requisitions, discharge certificates, and paroles. It starts at a $9.95 a month subscription. That is pretty reasonable...There may be a way to look at these for free but You probably would have to go to the Florida Archives in Tallahassee

[OldKingCrow]

Re: Florida research help please

Absolutely right Chris. When it comes to material culture, there is hardly a regiment that served on either side that we will ever know "everything", but particularly so with Florida regiments. Some we have a better idea than others, but thats one of the "joys" of what we do. Theres just not alot out there when it comes to detailed record keeping and research material, but that shouldn't keep us from digging and wanting to know more.

RL right on....my comments werent intended otherwise.

I only commented as to assigning absolute certainity based on the provided support / provenance and in retort to this as the motivation:

this is the type of information that we need to write and DOCUMENT our unit's history for the mainstream naysayers.

Gentlemen, being new to CW research this specific leads me to ask you all if any of this makes sense to you veterans or, am I way off base with this line of thinking?

I know my posts are often seasonsed with this community's dislike of me, but my motivation was strictly as stated, in terms of CS culture and the interpretation thereof to an already historically light audience (for the most part) on the Sunny South Peninsula.

In terms of mass produced (as in wholesale, issueable quantities) "kersey" garments coming out of deep South CS manufacturies, I am not familiar with extant, non-officer garments in kersey, outside of import English Blue Grey Kersey ("Charleston", "Houston" patterns etc)

Are you ?

CR

[floridawar]

Re: Florida research help please

I would just like to thank you all for helping me to form a new hypothesis on the the historical uniforms of the 4th Florida. Walter and I were working together but it seems as though we had developed tunnel vision. This led us to believe that the 4th had never fought in Kersey and that Keith Kohl was completely wrong in that assumption. On the contrary, it seems that Walter and I have some crow to eat.

Brian/Walter...

Don't eat too much crow. It is a certainty that any kersey clothes worn by the 4th Florida Regiment were not made from blanket wool, cut from a late 20th century costume pattern, assembled by machine in india, and peddled in a circus like atmosphere...:wink_smil

[Ross L. Lamoreaux]

Re: Florida research help please

RL right on....my comments werent intended otherwise.

I only commented as to assigning absolute certainity based on the provided support / provenance and in retort to this as the motivation:



I know my posts are often seasonsed with this community's dislike of me, but my motivation was strictly as stated, in terms of CS culture and the interpretation thereof to an already historically light audience (for the most part) on the Sunny South Peninsula.

In terms of mass produced (as in wholesale, issueable quantities) "kersey" garments coming out of deep South CS manufacturies, I am not familiar with extant, non-officer garments in kersey, outside of import English Blue Grey Kersey ("Charleston", "Houston" patterns etc)

Are you ?

CR

Nope Chris, you're right as rain. I'll never disparage your knowledge and ability to extract nuggets of wisdom in the cause of real history. I've yet to see any evidence of widespread kersey issues, outside of private purchase and commutation goods, and in the case of the 4th, probably company by company. And Archie is definitely correct, any garments made then were definitely not sold next to funnel cakes with the S, M, L, and XL tags cut out prior to hanging on wire hangers in a marquee tent...

[OldKingCrow]

Re: Florida research help please

The transiton of civilian Floridian, whipped into revivial-like, patriotic ferver to muster in service of his STATE, including local militia units, only to be consumed by the CS machine and turned into fodder at the hands of Bragg has far greater interpretive value than any particular material aspect of a uniform.

Forest > Tree

[Ross L. Lamoreaux]

Re: Florida research help please

Quite true and well said

[RebelRouser]

Re: Florida research help please

Thanks Chris, for putting things into perspective. I guess I got carried away thinking I was really onto something. Maybe we should be more worried about how to explain the fact that the 4th is fighting within the state of Florida. Something that never happened.

[floridawar]

Re: Florida research help please

I agree with Chris; The Florida reenactments are largely hollow experiences. Nothing beats the rush of interp. at the actual sites.
The 4th may not have engaged in combat in Florida to any extent, but they were a critical part of the state's coastal defenses in 1861-1862. The companies were scattered between Cedar Key, Tampa, Manatee and Fernandina, etc. It was here that they were organized and recieved their initial instruction as soldiers, etc. There is no reason why you cannot find a means of interpreting the early service of your namesakes' in east Florida in the early war period. there ARE historical sites and venues in all of those areas which might respond to holding a living history encampment. If you want to "reenact" the experiences of Co. "G" such local programing could have a positive effect on esprit de corps, drill, and camp life... (and public education). Adding to that participation in the higher class of Campaign/battle reenactments espoused here, might combine into a worthwhile series of experiences...

Just 2 cents.

[OldKingCrow]

Re: Florida research help please

Thanks Chris, for putting things into perspective. I guess I got carried away thinking I was really onto something. Maybe we should be more worried about how to explain the fact that the 4th is fighting within the state of Florida. Something that never happened.

You are onto something. Keep it up.

IMHO it's a stretch to draw absolutes from the primary support in hand to date. A side to that, cassimere is thought to have roots in the English "kerseymere" so who knows Ives' label may not jive with our modern assignment of the same term. I forget if his work listed his occupation for a possible insight into his level of textile familiarity and sophistication.

That being said a "Columbus or Alabama (style) Jacket" being most commonly associated in modern times as having a blue cuffs and / or collar on grey jean / cassimere / satinet body, together with a well made pair of trousers of kersey wool in proper civilian cut/pattern would be P/E/C and acceptable for any modern AOT event or at historical site in which the 4th saw action.

If yer a gettin' to those events and places that is. Shame we didnt hook up years ago.