Why those long wide Bowie knives?

[Lance Stifle]

Has anyone thought about those long wide Bowie knives we often see being held up by Civil War soldiers on both sides when they were photographed?

Were they only photographers props?

Were they ever carried by the troops as an effective weapon on either side, at any time during the war?

Your considered thoughts please.

There may be an answer from a conflict on "the other side of the world".

Kim Stewart-Gray

"I am with the South in death, in victory or defeat...I never owned a Negro and care nothing for them,
but these people have been my friends and have stood up to me on all occasions."
Patrick Cleburne 1860.

[fahnenschmied]

Re: Why those long wide Bowie knives?

Those big "Bowies", which look like part ships cutlass and part Roman sword were not just studio props. They were made in pretty good numbers at the outset of the war, and they were carried for a short while. (At least, till the first long march.) Yet I cannot tell you if they were ever effective weapons. Perhaps in some shipboard scuffle somewhere... They weren't just made in little blacsmith shops, but also in some private armouries - one not far from here in Keenansville, NC springs to mind. A lot of people THOUGHT they would be an effective weapon!
Pikes, too, were made in large numbers at the outset, but I couldn't tell you if they were ever effective weapons, on sea or on land during the conflict..

Dave Stone

[Andrew Kasmar]

Re: Why those long wide Bowie knives?

They are not just a early war weapon, for there are originals and documentation linking large side knifes for the Red River and Franklin Campaigns of 1864. They have also been found at battlefields of 1865 in North Carolina. Not sure if this will help you with your original question, but it does indicate that they were used well after the opening year of the war. Thanks

All the best,

Andrew

[csabugler]

Re: Why those long wide Bowie knives?

I don't have the document in front of me but something like 2 tenths of 1 percent of recorded wounds were inflicted by edged blades. That's 2 out of 1000, and all edged blades combined. That stat indicates knives were seldom used as a weapon. There have been several discussions here about the likelyhood that someone in a "mess" might carry a large knife as a tool, or maybe 1 among a few messes.
You can thank Hollywood for the image of civil war soldiers wrestling about on the ground with sticks and knives. Yes, it happened, but the frequency wouldn't seem to justify toting it.
I think if a fella ( I'm not implying you) spent a few hard weekends living out of the saddle or blanket roll, without the benefit of a cot in tent with a beer cooler and a clean set of clothes, he would join the thousands who discarded their big knives
My opinion, having been thru this many times.
And I concur about the photo props, you see all sorts of items with fellas to whom they would not be common.
Patrick Pete

[PetePaolillo]

Re: Why those long wide Bowie knives?

Here are some sources for your perusal. Sources are always Good:D

http://books.google.com/books?id=YOmZolJJktAC&lpg=PP1&pg=PA73#v=onepage&q=&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=62UpqBawyUMC&lpg=PA25&dq=civil%20war%20sheath%20knives&lr=&pg=PA25#v=onepage&q=&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=k9wSAAAAYAAJ&dq=civil%20war%20sheath%20knives&lr=&pg=PA541#v=onepage&q=knives&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=IOyKSZKGulUC&lpg=PA66&dq=confederate%20knives&lr=&pg=PA66#v=onepage&q=confederate%20knives&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=FhK_6XS2UPoC&dq=confederate%20knives&lr=&pg=PA256#v=onepage&q=&f=false

"6th and 1th November.—The morning of the following day, to our great surprise, passed quietly, and we were enabled to take up our old line of defence at Waterloo Bridge, sending out scouts and patrols in the direction of the enemy. One of the latter was fortunate enough to capture and bring off a Yankee waggon, which gave us a good supply of Havana cigars, and contained, among other articles, a large number of fine bowie-knives. For a long time afterwards, each of us carried one of these knives in his belt, finding it extremely serviceable, not as an offensive weapon against the Yankees, but for the cutting of the very tough beef which, during the next month, formed the greater part of our rations. The bowieknife occupied a somewhat conspicuous place in the earlier annals of the war, and we were often told of Louisianians, Mississippians, and Texans who threw away their muskets in the hottest of the fight, and fell upon the enemy with their favourite weapon; but I have always regarded these stories in the same fabulous light with the stories of the bayonet conflicts to which I have before referred, and certainly I have never seen the bowie-knife put to any other than a purely pacific and innocent use."

http://books.google.com/books?id=K7LVBbfbF10C&lpg=PP1&pg=PA19#v=onepage&q=&f=false

" Blacksmiths repaired ancient muskets and contrived deadly looking knives and sabers from farm implements and scraps of steel" pg 19

[JimKindred]

Re: Why those long wide Bowie knives?

I don't have the document in front of me but something like 2 tenths of 1 percent of recorded wounds were inflicted by edged blades.

These type statistics come up quite often coming from documentation of wounds seen by medical personnel, what they leave out are the deaths caused by blades. These gentlemen were normally not carried back to the doctors for statistical research.

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Why those long wide Bowie knives?

Hallo!

Also a side discussion on the mortality of bayonet wounds on teh battlefield not making it back to the hospitals to "be counted."

While there is documentation for personal rather than photographer studio massive bowie knives such as camp photographs, accounts, and even battlefield pick-ups, IMHO they are a rare minority in the CW soldiers' experience (unless one had one).

However, as I am sure many a CW lad found out, the need for a meat cleaver to butcher an ox or a hand ax to build a log cabin was not worth the bulk and weight compared to "belt" sized "bowie" camp or hunting type knives better suited for fieldcraft and mess chores.
Meaning, IMHO, if more lads would not carry a massive bowie just for "jewelry," and actually had to use one for camp or mess chores, "we" would see more "folders" (pocket knives) and at best five or six inch bladed belt knives.

Others' mileage will vary...

Curt

(Remembering an N-SSA pard, Davey, who carried and used his Confederatre great-grandfather's Sheffield type bowie for his ramrod rest in competitions.)

[Hank Trent]

Re: Why those long wide Bowie knives?

and at best five or six inch bladed belt knives.

That's a good point to keep in mind. A lot of the knives that they called a Bowie knife probably wouldn't be considered a Bowie knife by a lot of people today, so one needs to separate out the big D-handled broad-bladed Bowie knives from the little Sheffield bowie knives when researching things called Bowie knives in the period. It's usually possible to tell from context, but not always.

Hank Trent
hanktrent@gmail.com

[LibertyHallVols]

Re: Why those long wide Bowie knives?

This is the A-C, folks. Documentation, please!

Got stats? Cite a source.
"Have been found..." By whom, when, and where?

Props to Pete P for actually quoting a referenced source!!!!

[Old Reb]

Re: Why those long wide Bowie knives?

Bowie knife linky dinky

http://www.tshaonline.org/handbook/online/articles/BB/lnb1.html

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Why those long wide Bowie knives?

Hallo!

For 1861:

"No. 2.

Weapons, captured at Rich Mountain Pass on July 11th by the Ind. Regts.

A great many knives of the most monstrous dimensions were found on the bodies of the dead and wounded and taken from the prisoners. The blades of most of them, which were at the recommendation of Gov. Wise manufactured out of waggon (sic) springs, measure on average a foot and half in length and from 3-4 inches in width. They would in close combat prove a most disastrous weapon, but are not likely to be used that way."

L. Johnssen, field correspondent for Harper's Weekly.



Curt

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Why those long wide Bowie knives?

Hallo!

And a lad from the 4th Michigan:



Curt

[David Fox]

Re: Why those long wide Bowie knives?

I've never bought into the oft-repeated assertion large side knives/cutlasses were useless encumrances to army personnel. Should a fight boil down to one protagonist getting inside the guard of another, rare as that scenerio may be, a large knife in hand would be a sight better to have than a sharp stick. Perhaps more important, they made very useful camp tools. Remember: the United States Army went on after the Civil War to the trouble of adopting a series of large-bladed personal weapons/tools for groundpounders from the 1870s through 1910. These included the bizarre wide-bladed bayonets of the 1870s with hand application, the 1880 "hunting" knife, production resuming in 1890, the Krag Bowie bayonet of 1900, and the M.1910 bolo widely used in WW I, a murderous trench weapon. WWII saw the limited issue of M1941 naval cutlasses to GIs on Guadalcanal and wider issue of machettes in the Pacific and Viet Nam. Seems to me that, for a sidearm asserted to be worse than useless, every American Army generation since 1865 has found application for large side knives or side knife-like weapons with concurrent thrusting, cutting and a chopping usefulness. In the infantry unit to which I was assigned in Viet Nam, very large cheap Bowies sent from home were a fad. We weren't issued machettes in the Mekong Delta, and these cleaver-like edged weapons popular in 1861 had multiple practical uses in 1968.

[Hank Trent]

Re: Why those long wide Bowie knives?

Weapons, captured at Rich Mountain Pass on July 11th by the Ind. Regts.

Check out that bottom one. If it's drawn to scale, that's the largest push-dagger I've over seen. Is that as unusual as I think it is, or is that some kind of weapon I'm not aware of, that normally comes in that size?

Hank Trent
hanktrent@gmail.com

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Why those long wide Bowie knives?

Hallo!

Dunno, I have wondered that for decades since first coming across that reference.

It defies push-dagger technology due to its size.

However, in some oriental martial forms of knife-fighting, that is still taught (say to the "Delta" and the "SF" type lads) there is a two handed "power assist" using the second hand to push the hilt. (It comes after one has captured the attention of a foe with the first 1-3 cuts.)

But the CW era farmer, clerk, or mechanic did not receive such esoteric and arcane into modern training- and used a knife either as best he naturally could, or perhaps might have actually been exposed to.

(On the other unrelated hand, I was taught how to "be nasty" to kill or maim with many mundane things one could just pick up- a pencil, a ballpoint pen, an umbrella, a car key, or a rolled up newspaper or magazine if my unaided body was not getting the job done.)

Soldiers improvise with what they have. The large bowie could inflict nasty and fatal wounds in its own right but also having passed into contemporary legend in the 1840's and 1850's as a Jim Bowie craze.
Sometimes crazes make sense, sometimes they did not. We are again seeing a very small rise or interest in the modern military with tomahawks, which is history repeating itself from Viet Nam.

The M1869 Trowell bayonet is another historical oddity.

Curt