Red Flannel Shirts

[daveray84]

Re: Red Flannel Shirts

The Military Board of the state of Mississippi in March 1861 called for red flannel shirts as the fatigue uniform for infantry. The authors of the Osprey MAA book on SC and MS troops relate a story from the New York Times of August 2, 1861 that indicated the 2nd MS Inf. at Bull Run were mistaken for Minnesota troops because of their uniforms. An interesting reference to Confederate red shirts....

[sigsaye]

Re: Red Flannel Shirts

Chris, One of the things to think about is that even though Alabama was a Confederate vessel, other than Semmes and most of the officers, the crew was english and asmattering of other europeans. During the cruise, there were one or two here and there who were captured from US merchant vessels and then chose to sign on with Alabama, but for the most part, no Southern Americans. Also, the ship itself never made port in the US/CS. The crew was outfitted from forign stores that intentionally had to not "Look" Confederate. Anything Alabama Sailors were wearing would be more of an anomally than something to base the look of the CSN Sailor. I have seen a couple of photos of Alabama crew men, and they look to be wearing the standard Sailors dress of the time. They are somewhat in the distance and of course, color is undeterminate. Coule they have been wearing red undershirts? Why not? A pretty standard "Non-National/Military/Naval" color. Blue-Black woolen for trousers, jackets and hats? Again, why not? Again, "neutral" color since the use of "English Army" cloth was known to the US, no one could say "That is for Confederate Navy uniforms". I agree with the whole "Whats your referance/Thanks for the referance" thing, but the fact that the colors don't match anything known about the dress of the CS Sailor is not surprising. They wore whatever they could get any way. The average CSN SAilor seldom had any item in his seabag that matched CSN uniform regs, and many never had anything that looked like a uniform. much less a Sailors uniform. But, the info is nice to find, Brush up my 19th century "British" English accent, put myself together a uniform acording to the description (I wonder what color the frocks were?), and do a Alabama crew impression.

BTW Chris, are you looking at any Naval events?

Steve Hesson

[Blair]

Re: Red Flannel Shirts

Semmes did not have to be standing in front of Bullock to make his wishes known.
"Four Years In The Confederate Navy", by John Low, Page 43, paragraph 1 tells of a dispatch received from Secretary Mallory by Bullock, just days before the "Enrica" a.k.a. 290 made its escape from English waters.
One of the many papers sent in such dispatches is a letter telling Bullock that the command of the 290 was to go to Raphael Semmes.
Page 43 paragraph 3 states Semmes was in "Nassau on July 1 - and Semmes himself had since written Bullock that he would be in England as soon as possible"
Page 52 paragraph 4, leaves little doubt that "a quantity of slops" (i.e., ready-made uniforms)" were delivered to Enrica.
Note, communications were conducted through the use of various dispatches. The study of these dispatches and the private correspondence contained within them is highly recommended.

The afore mentioned reference to the fabrics and clothing purchases for the CSS Alabama set the standard for our CSN uniforms when we Incorporated the "James River Squadron" as a non profit Living History Organization back in 1983. Many of the documents and research papers I gathered the three years prior to that are still in storage. I thought it was referenced in "suggested reading materials" we had made up in the hand outs for new recruits.

[sigsaye]

Re: Red Flannel Shirts

Blair, Why would you choose a uniform that was only worn by the crew of a ship that never was in the South nor had any Southerners in the crew(excluding assorted officers)? Just asking. In the archives of the Port Columbus Naval museum, they have a referance that that the members of the "Savanah River Squadron" were amazed at how suared away the crew of CSS Chatahoochie looked in their regulation CSN uniforms made of Jean Cloth from the Cloumbus depot. This was due to their motley attire in assorted CSN. USN. Army and civilian bits and pieces.

Steve Hesson

[Blair]

Re: Red Flannel Shirts

One of the thing I encountered with Naval ports such as Portsmouth, Va was the large stores of Naval goods the were saved/salvaged when that Station was abandoned by US Navy personnel. CS Naval Personnel would have been issued from these stores along the James River area.
There was also a large number of Merchant Ports in Southern waters which catered to the needs of the worlds Merchant sailors that were know to frequent these Ports. Dark blue clothing seems to have been the preferred fashion for not only the Merchants Seaman but for the Navies of the world at the time.
Semmes comments on the CSN regulations stating Gray to be used instead of the traditional dark blue. And I paraphraser something to the effect that, "No Navy in the world uses gray for a uniform."
The CSN also found it difficult competing with ordering the regulation gray Naval uniforms form contractors who already had Army contracts for clothing. Dark blue fabrics were easier for them to obtain.
Some of this same difficulty was reported by USN contracts seeking dark blue fabrics/uniforms made in the North. Army contracts took presidents over the rather small orders placed by the Navy.
We allowed for the usage of gray uniforming within our regulations. This was based on time and event specific requirements.
At Sailor's Creek as an example, when doing Tucker's Naval Battalion, Officially designated as the 1st Foreign Battalion, due to the great number of foreign born blue water sailors that had been exchanged/paroled in that Unit. We allowed for both dark blue as well as gray uniforms.
So, to answerer your question, it was because we found documentation for the use of dark blue Naval uniforms for the James River Squadron even quite late into the War.
FWIW, large quantities of British Naval/Maritime stores were brought into Savannah on the CSS Fingal.

[sigsaye]

Re: Red Flannel Shirts

Blair, OK, I understand what you are saying here. I agree with you 100%. CSN Sailors wore much more blue than they ever did gray. One question I have always had was did they make the uniforms to their regulations with the white cotton collars and cuffs on the blue frocks? I would think so. I also agree with you that lots of English made uniform items of the British Army Cloth (Cadet Gray?) was used also.

My original question was that the description that you gave of the stores the went to Alabama "sounded" like they were more black than blue. Also, the red undershirt fabric does not sound like something that was commonly found in either Navy. I have found no accounts of red undershirts in the USN, but would not be surprised at their use in the CSN.

Any way, bottom line here is I'm with you on this Blair, we are just sorting out the verbage, carry on.

Steve Hesson (who agrees and supports what Blair is saying)

[Spinster]

Re: Red Flannel Shirts

I think I remember reading that the 1st Minnesota was issued Red Flannel shirts at Fort Snelling. Darn books at home or I would double check... Remember thinking while I was reading that It would be cool to do a muster event for the 1st MN.

Have a great day!

You are correct in your memory. A number of years ago, Steve Osman reproduced those shirts, and they were issued at an event with the modern day 1st Minnesota. They are occassionally still seen in the field today, and appeared prominently at the last Westville event......

As for the "it would be cool" -see the events folder for "Raising the First Volunteers". In April, 2011, some hardy men will leave the garrison at Fort Sumter that Silas Tackitt is organizing, and fly to Minneapolis, steping from a brick fort into the stone walls of Fort Snelling, to depict the First Volunteers tendered for Federal service after Lincoln's call for troops. Rob Murray, Joe Beedle, and Jim Moffet are organizing the military side of this muster, which has a strong civilian component headed by Tara Harl.

There are many opportunities coming. Many will not come again.......

[Blair]

Re: Red Flannel Shirts

Steve,

We adopted the white collars on the dark blue frock, opted to omit the white cuffs. They were simply too hard to keep clean and squared away.
This was one of the few aways of recognizing this variant of CSN from the USN uniforms.
For thoes that went with gray frocks they went by CSN Regs with white collars and cuffs. Of course, those Regulations were not published until March of 1862 and they were based/patterned off of the Very scetchy 1851 USN Regs. Very little details on enlistedmens clothing.
Most of the guys opted for a plain gray or Navy blue wool flannel placket front shirt or the earlier single neck button type shirt. When left unbuttoned this shirt wore vey much like the Navy frock but with a short collar.
The Blue-black broad cloth is a little darker than say the dark bule faberic in a US sack coat. It apperars black when compared with the sack coat, put next to a true black the blue-black shows up more blue.
Cadet Gray seems to be what many CSN Officers had their uniforms made from, base on the photos I've seen.

[sigsaye]

Re: Red Flannel Shirts

Fully agree with you on all. The dirty cuffs and collars was why the Navy went BACK to the blue collars and cuffs with the '59 regs. In the photos of Alabama crew, the collars and cuffs on their uniforms are the same color as the frocks. The US Navy did not adopt the dark blue of which you speak, as the standard color until 1933. That si why a lot of Span-Am and WW1 Navy uniforms get mistaken for CW.

Steve Hesson

[Blair]

Re: Red Flannel Shirts

When I found the reference to the red flannel for undershirts I too was very surprised. I hadn't even considered under shirt up until that time.
There seems a great deal of leeway was given a ships Master in determining what uniform/clothing would be allowed and under what occasion.
I have always been under the impression that Semmes had seen this combination in his travels and liked the look of the color contrasts.
Is this date of 1933 base on enlisted mens uniforms? Does that include Officers as well?

[sigsaye]

Re: Red Flannel Shirts

When I found the reference to the red flannel for undershirts I too was very surprised. I hadn't even considered under shirt up until that time.
There seems a great deal of leeway was given a ships Master in determining what uniform/clothing would be allowed and under what occasion.
I have always been under the impression that Semmes had seen this combination in his travels and liked the look of the color contrasts.
Is this date of 1933 base on enlisted mens uniforms? Does that include Officers as well?

It was not so much that the Ships Captain was given leeway as much as the logistics of the Navy dictated the leway. You have to look at the logistics of the Navy. The Army was a Metropolitan organization, never intended to operate more that a weeks rail trip (or so) from a source of supply. This allowed the Army QM Dept to establish strict details about everything issued to the Army and insure that it was adheared to. The Navy on the other hand was never intended to operate close to the US. Therefore it was designed to subsist on what it could find. While there were uniforms made inshops at the Navy Ship Yards, and procured from civilian sources (civilian seamen wore pretty much the samething Navy Sailors did, just more varried colors), once that source was no longer available, the Sailor had to make his own. Knowing this, the Navy did not get into the minute detail of garment construction and materials the Army did. As long as the finished product fit the basic pattern of Sailors clothing, it was good to go. Most US Sailors did infact maintain a degree of uniformity in general appearance, but the details were varried. Fabrics were pretty uch anything blue.

During the CW, these uniforms tended to have heavier fabric for the trousers and light weight flannel for the frocks. many of the nicer surviving uniforms were made completely of Federal Blouse Flannel. However, it was not standardized until 1886 when the basic style and cut of the enlisted uniform we know today was adopted. The WW1 uniforms is have are the same fabric as in CW blouses. They show wear in the arm pits, collars and cuffs. At that time, the blouse flannel was the fabric setteled on for "ISSUE" uniforms. There were of course nicer tailor made uniforms made. Officer uniforms were all private purchase and tailor made, and therefore generally of finer fabrics with varring shades of dark blue. This fabric remained the standard for enlisted uniforms until 1933. At that time, the US Navy adopted the dark "Navy Blue" melton wool we all recognize today, along with making the flat hat smaller.

Steve Hesson

[OldKingCrow]

Re: Red Flannel Shirts

Steve,

When someone asserts a detailed materal aspect, certainly with respect to time specific martial matters, this community and its approach demands and appreciates support We had a member post detailed assertion of Semmes purchasing specific uniform items, in such detail as listing their color, material and pattern. You and I know research has not been uncovered with this specificity of detail to date, if it has, Brother, wait no Dood, I would LOVE TO SOAK IT IN AND ADD IT TO THE KNOWLEDGE BASE OF THE NAVAL COMMUNITY.

My interrogatory was essentially ignored until you came on and spoke in terms of the CSS Alabama's crew being comprised of English sailors did the original poster return to the thread and has since robustly posted paragraph after paragraph of further assertion still not offerring any support of the historical claim. Which at the end of the day, is cool. I was and am guilty of putting to much faith or fantasy in that folks seek to apply the same level of due dillegence that many of my former friends and I apply/ied to their impressions.

No Im doing any events anymore, those opportunities are gone.

CJ Rideout
Tampa, Florida

[sigsaye]

Re: Red Flannel Shirts

Chris, I broke Blairs original post into several sections. The part about the details of what FABRICS Alabama took into her stores for the making of clothing was one section. Documentation either is or is not there, and can or can not be tracked down. The descriptions them selves did not surprise me for reasons I have already gone into. The other thing was the statement to the effect that an organization used that description as the basis of the unit impression. This was a concern to me, since my only interest in the Civil War is the Navy, I prefer to see it done as correctly as possible. But I continued asking Blair questions and determined that they did not appear to have actually used "Alabama" descriptions for their impression, but rather a well thought out impression based on available information. I spent some time with the Intel community while in the Navy and learned that asking the same question from different angles is pretty effective at getting the answer (OK, not as amussing as beating the snot out of someone that really needs it, but effective for here).

There are places where there are simply holes in the fabric of material culture. The dress of the CSN Sailor is one of them. We don't know for sure what they were wearing. Like the Army, it appears that it also varried depending on location and time of the war, based on their logistics. So, if we want to represent the Confederate Sailor, we have to extrapolate what information we have, put it together with the things we know (fabrics, construction, how Sailors wore their clothes) and do the best we can. Is that best case scenario? Oh no!, but as for now, it's the best there is. Some day, I would love to stumble upon an old trunk that when opened, reveales a full seabag of CSN Enlisted Sailor uniforms and gear with photos of the original owner wearing them and letters describing them. But until that happens, we have to go with the best info we can pull up. Over the years, I have stumbles across all sorts of bits and pieces of info that at the time really meant nothing, but later I would find another "piece of the puzzle" and it was all make sense. The big issue is not the finding of some obscure bit of info, but not incorporating that inof. For example, I remember CSN Sailor impressions that were made of old gray Navy blankets! When correct fabrics became available, those clothes should have been boxed and new gear aquired. Ignoring the new information (after it has been varified/checked/read/examined for your self) is the real issue.

So, I think that other than tracking down the info on the Alabama that Blair posted is the task here. I have not seen any of this, but I don't really get that deep into CSN except on occassion and as it applies to the USN. I will search this out and check it. Sounds like fun.

Steve Hesson

[OldKingCrow]

Re: Red Flannel Shirts

There are places where there are simply holes in the fabric of material culture. The dress of the CSN Sailor is one of them. We don't know for sure what they were wearing. Like the Army, it appears that it also varried depending on location and time of the war, based on their logistics. So, if we want to represent the Confederate Sailor, we have to extrapolate what information we have, put it together with the things we know (fabrics, construction, how Sailors wore their clothes) and do the best we can.

Steve Hesson

Yep.

Which is why, when I saw this:

M A,

Raphael Semmes mentions the purchasing of several bolts of cloth for use, by the crew, aboard the CSS Alabama, when he took Command. Blue-black broad cloth for making the round hats and round Jackets. "Red (wool) Flannel" for the making of the crews undershirts. Trousers that were brought on board were of the pattern of the English Merchant service (Blue-black Broad cloth, fall front or button fronts? The report does not specific.)
I will have to search for the source of this information in case there are those who wish a specific citation to this reference.

I was not only excited, but kind of floored...but then the follow up lacking anything supporting such an assertion and a known pattern of applying a research standard more akin to another forum than here...meh.

CJ Rideout
Tampa, Florida

[Blair]

Re: Red Flannel Shirts

For those with an interest in this type of research, this might prove to be some interesting reading
One references concerning the clothing of many seaman that will become crewmen on the CSS Alabama is,
Chapter XXXI, page 405, paragraph 2
Another reference is,
Chapter XXXII, page 426, paragraph 2

Memoirs of service afloat: during the war between the states - Google Books Result (listed under a Google search for "Raphael Semmes Quotes")

These are not specific to the quotation I made earlier to a bolt of "red flannel" being purchased at Semmes request. I have only been able to reread a rather small potion of this book. It may, however, give the average reader some idea at the complexity of the various documents that have be be looked through to find this particular citation.

Perhaps the original poster of this thread can give some information on where he heard/read of Semmes mentioning "red shirts"?