Where Does THIS END of the Hobby Need to Improve MOST?

[OldKingCrow]

Re: Where does THIS END of the hobby need to improve MOST?

High-quality EBUFU events are what this end of the hobby is all about. If "we" can only get a dozen or so military reenactors to attend what promises to be one of the most educational and logistically challenging EBUFU events in recent memory, "we" don't need to be encouraging "us" to waste effort attending more mainstream events. If we want our end of the hobby to remain, "we" need to fill up the schedule supporting each other first, then support mainstream events in the extra time when nothing else is happening.

Hank Trent
hanktrent@gmail.com

There are folks across the spectrum, (dare I say the preponderance of the authentic community based on the 5-7% attendee moniker which is worn so proudly) doing their own "historically representative thing" and applying a research based, MMM and PEC approach, combined with one helluva amount of requisite due dillegence and never attend a single EBUFU event.

Chris Rideout
Tampa, Florida

[Hank Trent]

Re: Where does THIS END of the hobby need to improve MOST?

There are folks across the spectrum, (dare I say the preponderance of the authentic community based on the 5-7% attendee moniker which is worn so proudly) doing their own "historically representative thing" and applying a research based, MMM and PEC approach, combined with one helluva amount of requisite due dillegence and never attend a single EBUFU event.

Chris Rideout
Tampa, Florida

I've asked it before and I'll ask it again. How? Because I'd love to attend a few more events each year, closer to home, but they're all mainstream.

Let's say someone is portraying a private. Who marches you out to stand picket and who relieves you after two hours? What officer signs your pass? Who drills you for five hours in garrison or where do you march for five hours on campaign or who tends you for the rest of the event after you're wounded in battle? What do you do when there are no other privates in 186x to socialize with, because they're all talking as if it's 2010?

And the same types of things apply if one is a civilian. I literally do not understand how one can reenact anywhere near as accurately at a mainstream event as at an event where others are being supportive. The only possible way would be to pick a role where, historically, one would be mostly isolated from everyone else. Sometimes, at the historic time and place, there just aren't any--especially for military reenators who are, by definition, part of a larger army. But even if it might fit historically, I really don't want to travel even two or three hours to spend a weekend virtually isolated at what should be a cooperative venture--I can camp alone in the woods here at home if I wanted to do that.

Hank Trent
hanktrent@gmail.com

[OldKingCrow]

Re: Where does THIS END of the hobby need to improve MOST?

I just did it at Resaca...many of the things mentioned in thread.....

Rode out from horse trailers spent the days riding the park in some advanced, high paced equine conditions (at lest for this flatfoot), spent nights on a cold camp on a ridge over looking May 15, 1864 Johnston entrechments (actual 146 years to the date)....bivy'd in the rain (rained every night), the three of us huddled under two ground cloths.....biled coffee...lousy wet rations...tacked up/ down in the dark...came down from the hills to participate on the periphery of the battle in a historically representative role...got invited to period dinner party put on by reputable folks from this site at their awesome civilian camp....pulled a regiment of ticks off of me... puked a fair share.

CJ Rideout
Tampa, Florida

[Edmund{Road Apple}]

Re: Where does THIS END of the hobby need to improve MOST?

On a more positive note, Campaigners should focus more on being brilliant at the basics. What I mean by that is focusing on solid company drill, marching, fieldcraft, military discipline, in other words... Soldiering. Too many spend too much time trying to find the next cool impression or trying to stand-out from everyone else when they should be looking to the most common, everyday soldier possible.

I have to agree with Mr. Sullivan on this, I havent been to an event going on over a year now but if your going to go become a "Campaigner" "hardcore" what ever term you use. Drill is the most important thing to be shown its what the soldiers did daily, It created discipline and morale. Having a "100% had sewn" or "Correctly Marked period Under-drawers" is going to do you squat unless you can drill, and know your place in the camps and I must say respect towards superior ranks. That bugged me the most in reenacting and will become more of a pep-peeve of mine, You should know the place of your NCO's SNCO's and your Commissioned Officers, NCO's should not be around a fire with a group of Privates and so fourth. That is where all forms of this life style fail horribly at and will continue well into the future.

And for some reason I can see my response spurring angry responses from the "Hard Core" "Campaigners" saying they do not want to be classified with "Mainstream" or "Farb" reenactors

Dear Mr. Lockhart,

You've been a member of this forum for five years. You have a grand total of eleven posts. You still don't have a proper signature as required by forum rules and after being warned as many as five years ago. Here's a reminder which was inserted into your first post five years ago :

Dear Edmund,
The AC posting rules clearly spell out the requirement that all members MUST sign their full name to their posts.
Please add your full name to your signature line for your account to avoid further warnings up to including deletion of your account. Thank you.

Here's a link to the thread where the above language first appeared : http://www.authentic-campaigner.com/...0799#post40799 The post following yours from a former moderator is also relevant.

Post again without a proper signature as required by the forum rules, and your account will be suspended.

- Silas Tackitt, a moderator

[Garryowen]

Re: Where does THIS END of the hobby need to improve MOST?

Howdy folks, I feel like tossin' my hat into the ring.
I'm fairly new to the AC end of the hobby, and admit I have not yet attended a EBUFU, but maybe some insight from someone with a "finger in both pies" might help.
Back in the day, when I was a wee lad just starting out (15ish) , I was accosted at a mainstream event by some dirty ragged guy with a long gray beard, and called all sorts of names. Not having any idea who we was or what he was about, I went back to camp and told My pards what had happened. They explained to me about hardcore and mainstream, using some rather unsavory descriptive phrases I'd just as soon not repeat here. Needless to say, I had a bad impression for a few years of those "hardcore guys".
A few years later at Cedar Creek, a friend of mine wanted to cross the creek and see what those "hardcore guys under the trees over there" were all about. I agreed, with a little unease after my first experience. We moseyed over, got to chatting, and found out, Hey those guys ant so bad. One nice "older gent" saw my haversack dangling low and offered some friendly advice on how to fix it. We hung out for an hour or two, and went back to our campsite feeling a little enlightened about things.
I joined the army after high school, and was out of re enacting for awhile. When I came back a few years ago, I started on what I'd like to think as being progressive, but some might disagree. I read more and different books, look at pictures and read the AC (after I discovered it, like Columbus discovering a New World already filled with people). Now I find myself eating salt pork and hardtack at mainstream events, attempting to hand sew things (my sewing needs work) and helping people with authenticity (or at least trying to).
Now, that was a little long winded (or typed) but my point is this, GET YOURSELFS OUT THERE. Make your self's accessible to people who want to talk, or start down that road to a better impression. Had I never "crossed the river and rested in the shade of the trees.." I may have always carried that first bad impression around with me.

[OldState]

Re: Where does THIS END of the hobby need to improve MOST?

Got to say I disagree. I'd hate to see this end of the hobby become the reenacting equivalent of a multi-level marketing scheme, where the goal is not to create real value, but to recruit more members.

If there were no EBUFU events, what would we tell mainstreamers or the public, who asked what they'd get to do if they joined our hobby? If the answer would be, attend events just like this to recruit more reenactors and educate more people like you, then there'd be no more "this end" of the hobby. That would also mean no higher level for the public who wanted more education (which is how I got into reenacting originally).

The public would get the 10-minute sound bite, but if they wanted to spend the money and the time to get the clothes and the knowledge, so they could learn more through living history than they saw at mainstream events, the answer would have to be well, sorry, "we're not for people like you," as a museum docent once told me when I was too interested in the history he was telling about. This end of the hobby should be for people like that, because if we don't do it, who will?

High-quality EBUFU events are what this end of the hobby is all about. If "we" can only get a dozen or so military reenactors to attend what promises to be one of the most educational and logistically challenging EBUFU events in recent memory, "we" don't need to be encouraging "us" to waste effort attending more mainstream events. If we want our end of the hobby to remain, "we" need to fill up the schedule supporting each other first, then support mainstream events in the extra time when nothing else is happening.

Hank Trent
hanktrent@gmail.com

I never said the hobby should stop EBUFU. What I did say was that they are a poor way to recruit new people. There are a good number of people at mainstream events that are probably interested in taking a step to the other side, but if this side doesn't represent then where to they gain access? If EBUFU is all your interested in so be it. If that was sentiment of everyone here then we would EBUFU ourselves out of existence.
On another note, I agree with Mr Beasley that preservation should be one of the primary efforts of this end of the hobby. That and Living History for the public. I will speak for myself here, but I've never felt better about my participation in this hobby than after attending an event that raised a bunch of money.

[Spinster]

Re: Where does THIS END of the hobby need to improve MOST?

I just did it at Resaca...many of the things mentioned in thread.....

.......got invited to period dinner party put on by reputable folks from this site at their awesome civilian camp....pulled a regiment of ticks off of me... puked a fair share.

CJ Rideout
Tampa, Florida

Just poor common folks sharing a supper with soldiers who looked hard pressed.

Mainstream events such as that one provide excellent rehersal for some aspects of EFUBU events, in a supportive environment--it's easy enough to remedy missing gear if several attempts at fieldcraft fail.

But it's still not this end of the hobby. Nobody asked for my pass or my good conduct certificate. A rare 3-4 men knew how to play when we sent a girl out peddling eggs at inflated prices that would have been in place at the time. (Even when I was there to whisper "open your period wallet and pay her in scrip"-folks don't get it. It's a different mindset. I'll bet you there was not another child there who'd raised the period chickens that gave their breakfast eggs.

And if we'd been playin for real, we'd have been wary of soldiers and you'd have not gotten food so easily.

Still, I learned that women and girls working alone can hill a wagon by hand. That hand made noodles are work, just like everything else, and how to balance a particular medication in heat.

Memorial Weekend I practiced at a different event. I functioned better and could do more work. Educating the public happened too, and money was raised. But I cannot offer the depth of insight in those short talks if I do not venture beyound the comfort level of mainstream events.

If I'm going to offer my personal best, I have to explore deeply in as many aspects of period life as I'm capable of doing. But if those around me are not in that mindset, it does not throw the curves needed to make me grow.

History-heavy, immersion events are not for everyone. Even a local reported gave us one look and understood how much heavier our workload was, and how different our camp looked from the others he saw. We will eliminate about half the gear we take to our next history heavy event, because we did learn a lot by practicing.

This larger hobby needs events all along the spectrum. But make no mistake. They are not the same, and this board serves this end of the hobby.

If we continue to give lip service to our types of events, and use the board to promote events that diffuse efforts for OUR events, folks will continue to mistake a piece of the pie for the whole pie.


same.

[Eric Fair]

Re: Where does THIS END of the hobby need to improve MOST?

Drill, drill, drill. I'm not just talking about evolutions of the line, battalion maneuvers, etc., but even simple things like the Manual of Arms. Remember, the real soldiers spent untold hours drilling, until the positions and motions for the manual of arms were muscle memories - snappy and crisp, and they can do it in their sleep. If you doubt this, watch the old vets reunion movies - they still have it ingrained after all those years.

I also think the devolution from larger company sized units into small messes has contributed to this. No one has drill weekends anymore! Back in the day everyone started the season with a drill weekend - now you rarely see this anymore. Those weekends accomplished a lot - a great way to BS with the guys and get it out of your system, share your research/latest projects, and, of course, work on every aspect of soldiering. Every unit had someone that enjoyed some aspect of drill, material culture, weaponry, etc., and was willing to share their knowledge/research findings. Then when you hit the season, you were good to go. I think everyone should be ready and have a working knowledge of drill through the School of the Company, an understanding of basic fieldcraft, and a basic understanding of the historical events surrounding the event they are attending before they start the season.

I've never been a huge proponent of the "persona" movement, but I will say I've noticed a distinct fall off of first person at events as well. So, while I don't personally feel it necessary to create an entire personality for oneself for an event, I do think one should be able to refrain from modern conversation for 36 hours.

[dirtyshirt]

Re: Where does THIS END of the hobby need to improve MOST?

I have seen a lot of people here saying many of the same things, and the one I would have to agree with the most is to be more tolerant of main stream and progressive events and individuals. I recently went to a dinky little local event here (that my son dragged me out to) and ran in to a group that I would consider to be progressive; guys I have never met, and I am glad I met them. They want to learn and grow, and who else are they going to learn from if we don't open our doors to help. Additionally, I would be glad to fall in with them at any other event I might attend around here outside of the authentic world.

[OldKingCrow]

Re: Where does THIS END of the hobby need to improve MOST?

History-heavy, immersion events are not for everyone.

This is all I am saying. I have lived this mantra for years now.

I only add the further qualifier that history heaviness exists all around in various forms and manifests itself in some pretty knowledgable and capable folks outside of the 5-6 or so EBUFU annual events.

CJ Rideout
Tampa, Florida

[LibertyHallVols]

Re: Where does THIS END of the hobby need to improve MOST?

Eric,

I agree with you 110%!

In 2004, the SG did a fantastic job breaking down the movements of loading in nine times with the book in-hand, reading it to us as we executed it. I've never learned that so thoroughly. I would hazard a guess that Marc Herman and John Stillwagon had their "Eureka!" moments on Support-ARMS and RSS (respectively) while working on those positions while looking at an open manual. I never fail to learn something new when I practice some element of drill with the book open, reading as I go through each motion, time, or step.

I make a point of getting battalion drill practice each year. Even in that setting, school of the soldier, manual of arms, and school of the company don't get the attention they need.

This is just one of the reasons that I am exploring starting a company (I'll be picking that project up again after I get done moving).

My two cents on concerning "elite" reenactors:
I have always been of the opinion that, as a reenactor, it is inappropriate for me to draw attention to the things that I am doing in the hobby as having their own merit or being worthy of any sort of "glory" or praise. As a reenactor, I go into situations by my own choosing and I am free to leave at any time. The situations I enter last for a few hours, so there is no REAL suffering involved. I'm just a guy with enough vacation time and disposable income to allow me to participate in a hobby. There's nothing laudable about that!

If I were to try to claim some sort of status though the hobby, I would (in my own opinion) be drawing attention away from the veterans of the war, and something worse... I would be using THEIR experiences and accomplishments to bring attention to MYSELF.

I think we owe it to each other in this hobby to stick to an event, even when it is no longer physically comfortable. Some of the best times in this hobby come through shared "suffering" (I use that term very lightly here) at events where its cold, rainy, hot, snowy, whatever. However, I think we have be vigilant against two things:
1) Knowing the difference between "discomfort" and danger. If this hobby gets caught up in physically challenging events as a way to "prove one's manliness" so that we can get bragging rights, I worry that we will lose site of safety. Once you cross the line, you can't see the line anymore.

2) Knowing the difference between our voluntary discomfort and the real physical, mental, and emotional challenges that veterans either had to deal with or be overpowered by and that no veteran of this or any other war would be impressed by our "toughness" that we may have slept in the rain when it was well within our control to be safe, well-fed, and comfortable.

In general...
I think there have been a number of great replies to this thread and a lot of great suggestions for improvement. Some of these are challenges that we can take on as individuals, but some challenge the way we are structured (or not structured) an whether or not that works.

On that latter point (how we are structured)...
What is our current structure? Do we even HAVE a structure? Or, are we simply an amalgumation of freelancers, pairs of pards, and messes, loosely associated to groups like the WIG, ONV, etc.?

What do folks think? What's working and what isn't?
(Maybe this is another thread)

[unclefrank]

Re: Where does THIS END of the hobby need to improve MOST?

Just my two Cents. I would like to see more attention paid to the condition of our Uniforms and equipment. Even in the field there was more attention paid to spit and polish than what we see. When not in the field, brass and muskets were polished, and Jackets and trousers were properly patched. An NCO's job was to enforce that. Also, I would like to see more work and chances taken with our first person impressions. It seems to me that when we are out in the field, and first person is required, that people just clam up. People had personalities back then, and I would like to see a better effort to develop them.

[usmcskipper]

Re: Where does THIS END of the hobby need to improve MOST?

John Wickett,
I agree with most of the other posts concerning drill and military life, but I especially agree about organization of this end of the hobby. I am active duty military and move around the country a lot. After reenacting my whole life and realizing that I wasn''t at the end I wanted to be on, I joined the AC Forum, replaced all of my kit, and read and re-read books, drill manuals, etc. My next move was to try and find a unit to join and that is where I ran into problems. Since I hadn't been active in Civil War reenacting for about 15 years, I didn't know where to go to find a group anymore. The forum has a recruiting area and I found links to messes, but I couldn't find anything to direct me to a group in a particular geographical area. My perception was that the messes were groups of friends who had broken away from larger groups and attended events with their buddies. It wasn't until I went to Backwaters that I understood how things work. I had a great time at the event and ran into several old friends, but overall, I had the feeling that it was a pick up game where teams were formed on the spot out of the personnel available. Hank Trent's comments about the Federal Camp showed that it worked, but it wasn't until the end of the event that I felt like the group bonded and by then the event was over and we went our separate ways. As a reader of this forum and a witness to some of the separation in the hobby in the 90's, I was a little nervous about being accepted when I registered for Backwaters and then nervous that something I had would be unacceptable when I arrived at the event. All of those fears proved to be unfounded, but they existed because I hadn't found anyone to help bring me along in this end of the hobby.

I believe that some sort of structure needs to exist to help get more people together in their areas which would help to create things such as drill sessions and training events. I think a larger organization would also help to vector potential recruits to groups in their geographic area which would increase contact and may help the numbers to grow. That larger organization might also be the place for a lot of us to go at larger events so we can still go to an event that is not an EBUFU event but be with like minded people. Those lesser quality events could be turned into a great experience by drilling in larger groups, practicing skills, meeting other like minded people, and rehearsing for things that we want to do at an EBUFU event. A side benefit of a larger group of us at a less authentic event would be exposure to potential recruits. Having the larger groups might also spark more interest and peer pressure into getting people to attend the EBUFU events.

If it wasn't for Uncle Sam's instructions, I would be at many more EBUFU events in 2010 and 2011 but I don't have a choice in the matter.

Chris

[Steve Acker]

Re: Where does THIS END of the hobby need to improve MOST?

Drilll
Sing
Research
And have fun with it.


Steve Acker
A guy searching for the fun the hobby used to give him.

[Hank Trent]

Re: Where does THIS END of the hobby need to improve MOST?

I never said the hobby should stop EBUFU. What I did say was that they are a poor way to recruit new people. There are a good number of people at mainstream events that are probably interested in taking a step to the other side, but if this side doesn't represent then where to they gain access?

And yet, ironically, we have an example just above of someone who was "recruited" at a mainstream event, and still only has attended mainstream events.

One answer to where they gain access is the internet. Any reenactor reading this forum knows about EBUFU events and could attend if he/she chose.

Also, I wonder if we're using EBUFU in two different ways. Some people use it to mean non-spectator events, with "us" referring to reenactors and excluding spectators. The origin, I think, meant events put on by reenactors rather than paid organizers, with the presence of spectators being irrelevant. Since that problem has mostly died away, I've often heard it to mean events by "us" (this end of the hobby) for "us," meaning "we" don't have to put up with mainstream organizers making sure the sutlers are close by, there's a ball in the evening to keep the ladies happy, gators come by regularly with ice, and so forth. Spectators might or might not be present--they're not the crucial difference. That's the sense I'm using it in. So an EBUFU event can potentially recruit from spectators, and is also open to any reenactor who wants to meet the guidelines, with usually loaner gear and/or a mentor willing to help anyone who wants to fit in rather than resist changing.

But this thread isn't about making "this end" of the hobby bigger, as I understand it. It's about making it better. I'd rather attend a better event with 2-3 people than a worse event with 50.

It wasn't until I went to Backwaters that I understood how things work. I had a great time at the event and ran into several old friends, but overall, I had the feeling that it was a pick up game where teams were formed on the spot out of the personnel available....

I think a larger organization would also help to vector potential recruits to groups in their geographic area which would increase contact and may help the numbers to grow.

I've tried that for civilians in Ohio--and for civilians it's easier, since three is plenty for friends or family, but that's pretty thin for drill. Nothing sustainable. Posted on a thread on another forum where Ohio civilians were complaining that nothing history-heavy went on nearby and they wished they could do a history-heavy event, but they couldn't travel. I suggested several solutions for doing something local. Thread died quickly.

Ironically, though, I usually see the same reenactors all around the country at events, from upstate New York to Louisiana.

I don't know if geography is the best motivator, and maybe, as illogical as it sounds, the current method works as well, because people who care will travel, and people who don't care enough to travel won't do it even close to home.

I dunno. Whatever is happening right now in this end of the hobby, I think, is working. It's on an upswing. Lots of improvement needed, of course, but it's headed in the right direction. It's better than it's ever been.

Hank Trent
hanktrent@gmail.com