Where Does THIS END of the Hobby Need to Improve MOST?

[JustRob]

Re: Where does THIS END of the hobby need to improve MOST?

John,

I'll take a hit without even firing a shot if it means that I don't have to clean my rifle afterwards.

[PvtShot]

Re: Where does THIS END of the hobby need to improve MOST?

I know there will be some of us who will never attend a mainstream event and some of them who will never attend an EBUFU. I must say however, that if I had not seen the massive column of the AoP at Franklin '04, I may have left the hobby altogther. Up until that point I was striving to improve my kit in my old unit and the lack of caring around me was blacking me out so bad that I was ready to quit.

What I saw at Franklin blew my mind. I never expected that there would be such a well organized and put together group or small groups under one large umbrella. Up until that point I thought that the progressive side of the hobby was just fragmented, smaller groups with no real organization and didn't see the point of playing a small pickett post out in the woods with just a few guys at every event. I liked the feeling of being part of an "Army". I couldn't believe all the good looking kits, the way they campaigned, the sheer numbers and the wagon that accompanied the column. To a frustrated mainstreamer looking for something meaningful; it was all I needed.

After that event, I knew there was more out there, and while I didn't have the chance to talk with any of the troops of the AoP, I saw a few people I recognized and the next/smaller event I went and talked to them and started to learn. I never looked back. I was still nervous and a bit apprehensive as to what it would be like at my first immersion event, but once I was there, I knew this was the place to be.

You can't leave it up to a few sites on the web to recruit new members to our side of the hobby. As stupid as it is there has to be some selling involved. The human element and bond, has to be there.

Now, what if we could make a real effort to have a large presence at one or two of the mega/national events per year, putting all the groups, messes, units, aside for the greater good? We could plan and organize it to be something spectacular; and figure out someway to involve those who are on the fence and looking for something better. We could make it an EBUFU within the larger reenactment without secluding ourselves too much or making it seem as though we are just there to "show off"? Can't we show them how it should be done without being elitists for one or two weekends a year? I think we would find huge support and surge in numbers if done the right way.

I think an event with 100-200 quality reenactors is great. An event with 500-1,500 would be awesome.

I am in no way looking for quantity over quality, but why can't we have quantity WITH quality?

[GrumpyDave]

Re: Where does THIS END of the hobby need to improve MOST?

You can't leave it up to a few sites on the web to recruit new members to our side of the hobby. As stupid as it is there has to be some selling involved. The human element and bond, has to be there.

So, it would be better to have "CPH'ers" attend "mainstream" events with "mainstream" groups, rather than sending adjuncts who appear more snobby and participate, doing their own things for the most part, somewhere within the event?

[OldKingCrow]

Re: Where does THIS END of the hobby need to improve MOST?

I am drawn to snobby, accomplished, self-absorbed historians doing their own research supported, historically representative things unobtrusively on the periphery at adjuncts. It provides a venue and opportunity for more and more guys just like me to do what gets our historical, wool clad rocks off.

Many never will do an EBUFU nor have traditional mainstream tendencies or interests so it doesn’t impact those events either way...why harsh the buzz ?

CJ Rideout
Tampa, Florida

"The only thing two horse people will agree on is: two horse people will never agree on anything."

[PvtShot]

Re: Where does THIS END of the hobby need to improve MOST?

It would be nice to have something like what the old AoP did at the larger events but figure out a way to really use the exposure to recruit.

I am in no way trying to force anyone to go to mainstream events and have a bad time, just trying to bring up new/more effective ways to get new guys involved in our side of the hobby.

I am in no way saying that what we do is snobby as I like to be around quality reenactors too. Just that maybe we can make some exceptions for a few events per year and show some people "the light" in person, not over the keyboard.

Masses of organized C/P/H's at big events can accomplish this better than any other way I can think of.

[LibertyHallVols]

Re: Where does THIS END of the hobby need to improve MOST?

As was said earlier, this thread is about improving this side of the hobby, not growing it.

But, since it is the topic on folks' minds...

So, it would be better to have "CPH'ers" attend "mainstream" events with "mainstream" groups, rather than sending adjuncts who appear more snobby and participate, doing their own things for the most part, somewhere within the event?

I would vote for “C) None of the above”.

I think reenactors should pick a group, club, clan, company, kabal, etc. that best meets their needs and stick with it. People like me are ruining the hobby.
-----------------------------------------
Here’s Me: I am a member of several groups. I pick and choose my own events each year and fall in with whichever group best suits my taste at each event. I serve in whatever capacity requested at each event, from “rear rank two” to “useless battalion staff officer” and everywhere in-between. However, I rarely serve in the same capacity more than twice per year, so my experience in the duties of each position in camp, drill, and field never really deepens as much as it should. Sometimes I can’t go to events I’ve signed-up for. It could be a good reason, like a seriously sick kid, or maybe I’m just getting the stink-eye from the missus as the time for me to leave draws near. Either way, the company I was going to fall in with won’t exist at the next event. I’m not really accountable to anyone or anything, other than my own conscience. So, as long as I can live with it, there’s no consequences for me skipping out on an event for a stupid reason.
-----------------------------------------
Does that sound like anyone else you know?

I think I, myself (and we, collectively) would be more useful to the hobby if I would just pick one group and attend the events on that group’s schedule. There's no problem attending EXTRA events, but not to the detriment of my/our chosen group.

I, being a selfish and self-serving fellow, would need to learn to attend some events that may not be my first choice, in order to serve the group and keep it healthy. In return, I would hope that others in that group might vote to attend some events that I wish to attend, even though not all of those events are others' first choice.

Is it the best use of an event organizer’s time to recruit every individual? Would it be better if event organizers could communicate with group leaders (high-privates of the mess, platoon sergeants, company captains, ship captains, whatever) and secure commitments for the attendance of groups, rather than gaggles of capricious individuals?

It doesn’t take a village to raise a battalion of compaigners for an event. I think maybe it takes a close-knit group of pards in each squad, platoon, or company to give a “WTF?” phone call when someone is going to bail out on an event. Our pards can tell when we have a case of rain-weenie-itis, couch-potato-fever, or we’re just being a wuss about asking the missus for a kitchen pass (something we KNOW we should have done back when we voted on the schedule!) – as opposed to a REAL reason for skipping an event.

[PvtShot]

Re: Where does THIS END of the hobby need to improve MOST?

Good points, I myself have chosen to go as "Independent" as to be able to fall in with different groups and get to meet more people. This also helps avoid any politics or inter-mess rivalry that may develop over the long term. (Can't wait yo have the time to really travel the country instead of just the southeast).

I do think that growing this side of the hobby would make it better in some capacity. Don't get me wrong, I love the pickett post/smaller EBUFU events as much as the next guy but am always longing to see more guys show up instead of imagining the "other battalion" or "regiment" of the Corps. All the first hand accounts I read you hear talk about what it was like amongst thousands of troops in close proximity. There are many reasons for the lack of numbers and some may not want anymore as long as they are quality guys and girls.

Is it impossible to get all the groups on the same page and to the same events?

Is there any reason (other than logistics and land size) that every available C/P/H unit shouldn't make the best possible effort to attend a simple weekend and nicely located event like "Before the Breakout" or one similar?

Maybe one of the best ways to improve this side of the hobby is for more organization and cohesiveness, but who can do it?

[Dale Beasley]

Re: Where does THIS END of the hobby need to improve MOST?

-This hobby was designed to emulate the Military. But it has left out many key ingredients of what makes up an Army.
-I love hearing people talk about more drill, because that is part of an Army, and should be included in an average day of duty.
-I laugh at the “First Person” statements, have you ever really listened to Real Soldiers in “First Person”
-I think doing away with these discussion threads would do a lot for the hobby.
- If you want to be like the Army, then act like it.

[elcid01]

Re: Where does THIS END of the hobby need to improve MOST?

The last military event I attended was Backwaters, and it was the first time I'd been in a military camp that seemed like a military camp for the whole event. No, it wasn't perfect and it never will be, and I contributed as much if not more than anyone to make it not perfect, but it took my breath away. It was like a time machine. It was what I'd always imagined reenacting could be. Maybe I was just lucky to be assigned to the right place, but it seemed to be the same everywhere in Federal camp. I'd only ever seen that kind of cohesiveness and application of research when participating as a civilian, not that that's saying much, since civilian is what I usually do and I don't get to many all-military events.

It's the incredible detailed touches of research that are actually applied during the event, that impress me. Yeah, there are the mainstreamers who just want to socialize, and the hardkewls who just want to talk stitches, but then there are reenactors who just get out there and do their best to reenact the past, and that's what I call "this end of the hobby."

Just two random examples:
--Little sticks were randomly dropping out of a tree at night, to our surprise. We were a German and two Americans. The German in his accent suggested it was a "poltergeist, a mischevious ghost." We Americans reacted sorta like, "Huh, that's interesting, hadn't heard of that." It was like stepping out of a time machine. I was watching the English language change as immigrants brought their own culture to the melting pot--in addition to all the other military-history things going on.

--Before the event, I'd been reading about torpedoes left in the road for unsuspecting Yankees to run into and be killed, and Sherman had threatened to make prisoners ride ahead on wagons to clear the roads to detonate them. It was a new bit of trivia for me, but something men at that time and place would surely have been aware of when traveling unknown roads. During the march, the CS prisoners were being marched ahead of the column. One Federal soldier near me said to another, "Why are the prisoners marching up there?" The other answered, "Probably because of the torpedoes." Again, like stepping out of a time machine. Wow.

It was like that, just over and over again. If there's any direction to go, I think that's it: More details, more complexity, more application of research. It's challenging, but I'd rather feel like I'm a 21st century person struggling to keep up with the living history around me (which is how I felt at Backwaters), than be bored wondering when we're going to quit with the socializing and stitches and actually start reenacting.

Oh, and leave the cameras at home. They add nothing--in fact they take away from all the effort--and they don't capture what's great about events anyway.

Hank Trent
hanktrent@gmail.com

Thanks Hank... Like to make the experience under my leadership the best possible. I run things like a military camp and as they should be.. this also was a compliment on all the men under the 63rd Indiana that weekend to include its leadership_

[elcid01]

Re: Where does THIS END of the hobby need to improve MOST?

Also- We are all portraying soldiers (citizen soldiers), so it wont kill you to be one for 2 days! Yes, Soldiers Complained but not about a 2 mile march, getting little food over the course of 36 hours, or having to sleep out in the rain. ***now i know as a leader for events I am responsible for the safety of those in my care*** but think im pretty experienced in doing this after my present combat experience. Those that fight with me at events, know my personality and agression- thus its evident to me those that are unable to step up to the challenge when my muster call goes out.

One thing i tell those with me-Look, Act, know:

Look like a soldier
Act like a soldier
Know that of a soldier

man up- "they did 150 years ago"

Hopping off stump...

Cheers Gents!

[Dale Beasley]

Re: Where does THIS END of the hobby need to improve MOST?

Skip,

YOu left out one thig..."It doesn't rain in the Army, it rains on the Army"

[Johan Steele]

Re: Where does THIS END of the hobby need to improve MOST?

-This hobby was designed to emulate the Military. But it has left out many key ingredients of what makes up an Army.
-I love hearing people talk about more drill, because that is part of an Army, and should be included in an average day of duty.
-I laugh at the “First Person” statements, have you ever really listed to Real Soldiers in “First Person”
-I think doing away with these discussion threads would do a lot for the hobby.
- If you want to be like the Army, then act like it.

I think the Colonel may have it spot on.

-Drill is so often ignored or minimilized at events to the detriment of those attending IMO.
-Listening to real soldiers talk... will catch the ears of the public on fire. A real soldier can out drink, out gripe, out cuss, out fight and out scrog any civilian because of the tension in his life. Just my experiance hanging around paratroopers and Marines. That's not saying we should be crass and nasty just to be so but when a veteran looks at a group of re-enactors and goes "They don't act like soldiers." It's worth noting.
-Too many want to play army instead of portray army. Luckily, on the higher end of the hobby that isn't generally true. But there are still those who just want to play war.

Mr Owens is also right in the most basic sense w/out such we aren't doing anything but play acting.
Look like a soldier
Act like a soldier
Know that of a soldier

It's knowing the persona, the period etc. Knowing the difference between barley & cotton or how many bushels of corn would be expected per acre etc. For cav to actually know how to ride and care for a horse and for the arty to understand how those horses actually moved a gun & cassion. Knowledge is power in life and in this hobby and the more we KNOW the better we will be in every aspect of the hobby.

What can we do to improve it? Man up has been mentioned and research up both quite apt. A constant effort of improvement is vital for anything to get better.

I think this hobby, at every level has a similar issue just in varying degrees.

[cwpilgrim]

Re: Where does THIS END of the hobby need to improve MOST?

Single biggest need of improvement on this end?
Drop the pounds and tone up.

Probably the most difficult of all because it can't be bought, read about, or just demonstrated a few times to catch on.

I looked in the mirror the other day and swore it was a Federal Oompa Loompa with a beard looking back at me! I had to make sure the mirror was not arched, or anything. It wasn't. Bummer.

[Dale Beasley]

Re: Where does THIS END of the hobby need to improve MOST?

Mr Steele,
Thank you, maybe I wont get run out of town on this one. The "Art" of this hobby, I feel is the getting together of folks with a "Common Like". I think that the battle part can never be reenacted, however the "getting to that point" can be. I have attended events, some with the WIG and some with others that put you in that first person. for example, the Port Gibson Death March, The Out Post type of events, The Vicksburg Sweat Lodge, Port Hudson Tactical, those events test your strength, your discipline, and your desire to "want to be there".

The Uniform should be a standard, and in many times it is enforced, you know the standard up front, so if you want to play on the playground, then you know what you have to come with. Test the desire, test the strength, test the ability to live as a Soldier, then the first person just naturally comes along with it.

How do you get folks to come together, well, set forth an organization in which there is an Organizational Structure and Chart, set forth an organizational where there is written rules, set forth an organization that basically is 'On Paper", with By-Laws. I just am totally against the "Mess Mentality" I believe there should be areas of recruitment, established Units of that area, establish means of logistical support, etc. I know for a fact that Units want to come to events, but from experience do not want to fall under unproven leadership. I 'm sorry, I'm just stating a fact.

I am going to praise a member of my Unit, Ross Burkenstock, that man is one hell of a Recruiter, it shows. Our Unit can form a 15 - 20 man Company at any event, given the time to organize it. He has added to our ranks young Cajuns that looked they just walked out of "echoes of Glory", and there are older guys like myself, that are too old to be recruits, but with the Team Approach, hell you would die to keep up. But that is what it takes, ORGANIZATION, in building an Army.

Basically if you want an Army, build one.

[Jim of The SRR]

Re: Where does THIS END of the hobby need to improve MOST?

As Clamper Grim has already stated, “Man, Method and Materials” are the foundation of what we do (I don’t know the originator of that, but it hold s true). But, to Double P’s point, it is also meaningless to the reenacting community if we don’t bring those things to the field on occasion.
But, to answer Mr. Wickett’s original question. What can we do better at events:
- Come to an event and all people who attend who meet the posted event guidelines are to be viewed as and treated as peers and equals. No one is ‘more elite’ than the man next to them. Everyone is at a different stage on their progressing path.
- Improve our first person. We can never achieve an event where first person is perfect. Despite that, we can all attempt to create some quality first person moments at events. Events that have many modern intrusions (modern homes, vehicles, paved roads) tend to ruin first person or hinders it. The exception is when spectators are there to view pre-scripted vignettes. These are to be viewed as plays for educating and entertaining the public. But, many events do not have spectators the whole weekend. So, take the opportunity to stay in first person through the rest of the event. I find that just being around reenactors who are living out their roles as soldiers or civilians brings about the moment alive without words.
- Organizers should do what they can to create an environment where first person comes naturally. There are many successful techniques that organizers have used to promote first person. From fate cards to more elaborate schemes, reenactors need context and sometimes prompting to achieve your first person goals. This then ties into better research.
- Improve our Research. No one person can have 100% of all the knowledge or know everything on all topics related to the ACW. Take a vacation day and head for your State Archive and do some research. Read a book or conduct a study from a reference book. Write an article on your findings. Many guys on this forum are willing to share their research with you. Take your research and use it to plan scripted vignettes, battles, demos, etc.
- More fleshed out portrayals. Organizers should try to take their research and turn that into prompts or contexts for vignettes at your event. For example at Westville, we give each person a Goal for the weekend. We don’t tell them much on how to accomplish the goal. But, when they do, they end up engaging another reenactor who is trying to fulfill their Goal. It helps to force first person, interaction and acting out of period roles. But, the reenactor must be willing to flesh out the person they are portraying and act it out as best they can. This even extends to battle scenarios. Where pre-battle discussions and choreography are conducted under WILLING commanders it will help to create more historical battle recreations.
- Improve your Material Impression. I have seen lots of guys in good gear. Some ALMOST perfect, but no one’s impression is perfect. However, many of you have seen guys in perfect kits who do not have the attitude to come out and serve in their role for the weekend or the entire weekend. I would rather have a guy in a minimal kit, but wants to play out the role he has signed up to do. The c/p/h community needs to open more opportunities for the better, mainstream reenactors to try our events. We can loan, guide and help a man get his gear up to the minimum, but we can do little to improve his attitude. Thus, we must stop the alienating claims of superiority that divide and chase off many quality mainstream, progressive reenactors as well as your peers.
- Finally, to echo Mr. Wickett’s point, being uncommitted and flitting from one unit/mess does not allow for building long-term bonds of friendship and trust.Core group members earn trust and comraderie thru events that challenge them and thru shared hardships and fun. Commit to one or two units and stop trying to be a member of ten units.

Jim Butler
SRR www.saltriverrifles.com
Dahlonega #69, E. Clampus Vitus