Where Does THIS END of the Hobby Need to Improve MOST?

[LibertyHallVols]

Re: Where does THIS END of the hobby need to improve MOST?

But this thread isn't about making "this end" of the hobby bigger, as I understand it. It's about making it better.

Hank, your understanding is correct.

[OldKingCrow]

Re: Where does THIS END of the hobby need to improve MOST?

Also, I wonder if we're using EBUFU in two different ways.

Hank Trent

EBUFU has become a catch all.

It was better when events were on the "tier system".

That way you knew straight away when an event (Tier 1) was intended for the elite of the hobby.

Other events someone with the right kit for the event (and skills /knowledge) but less of a historically representative impression might still be good to go.

CJ Rideout
Tampa, Florida

[ajroscoe]

Re: Where does THIS END of the hobby need to improve MOST?

Drill. Our end of the hobby is terrible at battalion drill. The commanders are rusty and/or unfamiliar with the commands, the company commanders are inefficient at keeping their men in control, and the men often don't understand how the movements of their company fit into the larger picture of the battalion. It is very hard to be in the ranks and see commanders portraying seasoned, veteran commanders unable to give simple commands, OR GIVING MANY COMMANDS IN A ROW TO GET THE EFFECT ONE COMPLICATED BUT COMMON ONE WOULD. Many of us also belong to mainstream units, where we get large amounts of battalion and brigade drill throughout the year, and it shows when those men are in command. I was a company commander in my mainstream battalion regularly, and have cringed at some of the officers I have seen in the hobby who cannot move their body of troops efficiently using the commands from the drill manuals. I know they are a bore to read, but anyone who is a 1st Sgt or officer at an event should be intimately familiar with Scott, Hardee, Casey, and the US Infantry tactics. For that matter, all the sergeants and corporals should be pretty familiar with them too. AS SHOULD STAFF OFFICERS. Battalion level staff officers are LINE OFFICERS, not staff officers, and should be perfectly capable of leading a company. Seeing officers at events as adjutant or quartermaster who do not know the drill and are unable to exercise command in unsat. These soldiers drilled for hours a day and it should show in how we act out there, and the officers and non-coms who led in this hobby have no excuse for being unfamiliar with the drill. Whether that means getting involved with a battalion, like John Wickett with the Meditch Battalion, Will Eichler with the Cumberland Guard Battalion, or Jim Moffett with the Western Brigade, or whether that means running white board exercises with a few friends (and a manual right there on the table), get the drill in and know what you're talking about if you're going to be a leader of a company or battalion. BUY the books and know them. If you have questions, read them from the book to get the answer, don't rely on what someone else read 15 years ago.

[Johan Steele]

Re: Where does THIS END of the hobby need to improve MOST?

I think when we can look & act like the men in the picture below while in the field it will be a good start. Such a CDV is what I base my own impression on. Add the letters and diaries of the time and we might get kind of close. Thank God though we don't need to worry about dysentery or real lead being pushed by the powder.

But all it takes is one bad apple to trash a bushel basket and that, unfortunately, has often been the case. My own situation is dictated by my physical condition; a game leg and arm keep me off the drill field and I've never been interested in playing war. Add a thousand odd mile drive to the nearest EBUFU event and you get someone who will likely never attend one. So what do I or can I do? Well, I can add to preservation, find an impression that I can can do and do my best to educate the public to the reality of the time. If lucky that spark of interest will be planted. I teach at a dozen schools a year and between myself and my wife, who portrays a free woman of color, a lot of youth get a taste of history they would never even hear of at any mainstream event or see in a history book. Part of the problem is a lack of universal standards and many in the publics belief that all "re-enactors" are experts... when some wouldn't know barley from peanuts.

I have to thank those who step up and say: hey take a look at this vendor or try this as well answered questions that have helped to further my own quest for a better impression and more knowledge.

Those who have told me to "Take your unsupported junk history to Szabos" because I want to see some evidence before I give a number of 65k black confederate soldiers or I contest that the AoP wasn't held off for four years by nothing more than a 290 lbs Sgt and Genl Lee. They don't do anything but hurt this site & it's tenant of improving oneself. We all can be guilty of not seeing the forrest for the trees at times, but we need to be able to focus on helping others up out of the mud instead of trying to grind their face in it. You can't keep somebody in the mud without staying down there with them. Such an attitude shouldn't be tolerated, but unfortunately it is.

We have to be willing to step up and assist others in improving the impression, both materially and knowledge wise. The I'm better than youism doesn't help anyone. But the approach of "Hey, take a look at what Missouri Boot n Shoe has to offer, brogans that actually don't hurt your feet." or "Tim Bender will actually get you a hat that looks right for less than you might expect and it will be there when he tells you it will be." That kind of approach works. We have to be willing to constantly improve and not grow stagnant. And we also have to be willing to leave modern politics at home and ask ourselves why are we really here. Because IMO if it isn't to honor and learn a little more about those who came before us, we're just theme camping and playing war in the woods.

FWIW I've learned a lot here from the membership, just the effort presented to make research available here is priceless. In other words without members likeTerry Sorchy, Elizibeth Clark, Curt Schmidt etc who are willing to step up and help this end of the hobby would be dead and buried.

Just my two pence.

[OldKingCrow]

Re: Where does THIS END of the hobby need to improve MOST?

Those who have told me to "Take your unsupported junk history to Szabos" because I want to see some evidence before I give a number of 65k black confederate soldiers

Johan,

Tried to send you a PM with a thread reminder to refresh your memory on the subject matter (wasn't Black Confederates, remember ?) which predicated the junk history comment but your coms are full.


Lets chat offline.

CJ Rideout
Tampa, Florida






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[JimKindred]

Re: Where does THIS END of the hobby need to improve MOST?

Tone the personal attacks down, stay on topic please.

[robert-m]

Re: Where does THIS END of the hobby need to improve MOST?

While we all are trying for the same common goals and general ideals. We all want to be used in someway or fashion. I am willing to bet that once we all suck it up and let somethings go (all hand sewn clothing) for the sake of somethings and the better of others (people breaking first person). The hobby it's self will grow.

In my Mainstream unit there are SEVEN of us that do a lot of C/P/H stuff. BUT GUESS what? It all started with ONE person taking the time to talk to some of the guys in the unit. And now there are seven of us that belong and participate highly within the AC community. And we seven have made an impact through just the mere act of listening and talking to the others within the unit. Now they're wanting to get into this side of the hobby more. Some of them are able to go all out and do a full EFUBU events and some are not. BUT the authenticity of the unit as a whole has risen.

There will be a new world that we as an AC forum can dream of if we all take some time and go to the local Mainstream events and help some of those guys. IT WORKS. So what if everything isn't all hand sewn. They had machine sewn stuff. The greatest thing that all men can dream of is making the hobby BIGGER. But IF the people that just sit back and think or say "F*** that they are farbs, I'm not gonna try to help them" or " he will never make it at an EFUBU, so why bother". THESE are the people that are making our side look and seem like the dill holes that most mainstream guys think of when they hear campaigners are going to be at an event.

I guess it all boils down to communication of some sort. Sorry if it sounds like I'm preaching

[Hardtack Herring]

Re: Where does THIS END of the hobby need to improve MOST?

I am not sure how to reply with quotes but I wish to quote Mr. Melville who's post is directly above my mine.

"In my Mainstream unit there are SEVEN of us that do a lot of C/P/H stuff. BUT GUESS what? It all started with ONE person taking the time to talk to some of the guys in the unit."

My response....How true this is. I saw this happen with my old unit well over 20 years ago.

Another quote from Mr. Melville

"There will be a new world that we as an AC forum can dream of if we all take some time and go to the local Mainstream events and help some of those guys."

My response....I agree with this 100%. I have met plenty of people on the other side of the hobby who have told me straight up they would like to be more authentic but do not know how or do not know of a more authentic unit to join. This is largely do to the fact that c/p/h units do not attend these events, or if they do they spend all weekend hiding in the woods.

[GrumpyDave]

Re: Where does THIS END of the hobby need to improve MOST?

Ergo, in order to get folks to attend more authentic events, it would be better to fall in with "mainstream" units at "mainstream" events than to form adjuncts to said events and ignore folks who could become converts?

[OldKingCrow]

Re: Where does THIS END of the hobby need to improve MOST?

I have met plenty of people on the other side of the hobby who have told me straight up they would like to be more authentic but do not know how or do not know of a more authentic unit to join. This is largely do to the fact that c/p/h units do not attend these events, or if they do they spend all weekend hiding in the woods.

This is a research and discovery based community (the entire hobby should be). A majority of which is imbued with dogged determination and self-motivated commitment to accuracy in minutia, combined with high levels of creativity. In 2010, with the strides in material accuracy improvement in the 'Stream, instant availability of net resources / information and the ever increasing popularity of the adjunct du jour to pret near every mainstream event, one might have to question the suitability of such stock to meet the standards on the long haul before it even leaves the stockyard.

Mid-19th Century life demanded self-starters and the hyper-accurate portrayal thereof requires much of the same.

CJ Rideout
Tampa, Florida

[Tom Craig]

Re: Where does THIS END of the hobby need to improve MOST?

I dunno. Whatever is happening right now in this end of the hobby, I think, is working. It's on an upswing. Lots of improvement needed, of course, but it's headed in the right direction. It's better than it's ever been.

I can see where Hank is coming from with this comment, especially based on his earlier comments about the Backwaters event, but I have to respectfully disagree. I think that there has been hobby improvement, but it has been in pockets. I do most of my reenacting in the Mid-Atlantic region and I would argue that things in my neck of the woods have been on a backslide for a few years. I would also argue that the large number of people on this thread advocating drill as the most essential thing to improve our hobby is indicative of a similar backsliding, or perhaps missing the point.

In the east I think that our side of things hit a climax around 2003-2005. I saw people pushing the envelope, trying event ideas, and impressions that I had never seen before, and doing some real innovation. From Charles Heath's honest to god salt-pork at the 2nd Bull Run living history to the CR living history event at Antietam (which was one of the best events I've ever attended). Even to the guys I saw modifying their coats to add pockets or experimenting with wearing their gear in different documented ways, to the hospital scenario from the first Burkittsville event.

In the east I never saw great progress made in the man part of the "triad" and that is where the progression stopped. From 2005 on there have been less events in the east, and the people at those events seem to have slid back to a 2000-2001 level of "getting it right." Drill and basic kit are certainly important. But I don't see people running events that encourage folks to ramp up their impressions out here, and I don't see participants going the extra mile to make the envelope pushing happen.

What do we need to do to fix it? That's a tough nut to crack. We need leadership of guys who know their history, and can have ah ha moments that lead us all to improvement. We need people to put on events that move the ball forward in meaningful ways (like the civilian participation at Bummers, or the Westville event). And we each need to do as much reading and research as possible and bring our A games to the table. Because this hobby is a collective experience I would also argue that we need some more cohesion among small groups and cooperation because being a military hobby, it's no fun to reenact by yourself.

Take care,
Tom Craig

[PogueMahone]

Re: Where does THIS END of the hobby need to improve MOST?

Hot damn! I've been waiting for this thread!

I agree that we all need more education on the times and material culture and discussions of depot variants and kewl klothes aren't for the field. We are all guilty on both counts.

I agree that we need more drill on a regular basis. And during that drill, we need fewer experts in the ranks trying to tell the NCOs and officers their jobs.

I think there is merit in the discussion about improving organizations at the platoon level. However, I recall the reason that events started using individual registrations was to avoid registering entire units where 4 or 5 had the required kits and 3 or 4 did not. It puts the event in the position of declining half a unit from participation at the gate and strong units stand solid and quit an event together, so you lose the 5 good guys when you kick back the 4 bad. Until you find a way to avoid that, events will still have individual registration.

Now, the thing that has done more to make me less interested in recent events is ... the events themselves. Why must every event involve a skirmish? Why must every skirmish devolve into cowboys and indians? These so-called "battles" become platoon-sized flanking manuevers, defensive positions are stick forts or a single file of men strung across a rise completely exposed. There is nothing realistic about it. The officers in command try to win the battle by defending their flanks until there is no more middle. I once heard a battalion commander tell a company commander to "send one platoon to this flank, one platoon to that flank and hold one platoon in reserve!" The company commander had to point out that he only had two platoons and before the battalion commander could understand the conceptual error he'd made, he reversed all his commands and gave new ones! It was ridiculous.

I'd rather not have the battles than to have these pathetic little powder-burning episodes. I'd like to see an event where the only shots fired were those to clear the muskets at the end of the event. Why can't we spend a weekend in the woods just watching the enemy across a field? Or just marching toward a common destination along seperate routes?

[Hank Trent]

Re: Where does THIS END of the hobby need to improve MOST?

Well, then, here's a question. What is "this end" of the hobby? Is it reenactors at mainstream events who want to be more accurate but never want to attend anything other than mainstream events? Is it the people I see at history-heavy events from New York to Louisiana to Missouri to Georgia who are trying to push the envelope of reenacting as a whole? Is it the cutting edge in each person's local region, at whatever level of accuracy that is? To me, it would be the second one mostly, because that's what will actually impact my own experience in the hobby, and that's what I'm here for--to have a good experience at events. It would also be the third one somewhat, but I'd rather attend fewer events farther away that were "better," than more events locally that were "worse," even if they were better than they used to be.

And then, there's the question: what's improvement? I was thinking it referred to reenactors' actual experiences at events, so I couldn't figure out why people were suggesting public-relations kind of things. But I just realized that's also "improvement"--they're saying the priority for this end of the hobby should be to improve its public relations with other reenactors, rather than the members' own experiences. I dunno, to me there are other priorities, and I don't really owe anything to people who won't eventually reciprocate by adding something back to this end of the hobby (see my definition of that above), but I can see now that that's also a different viewpoint about what needs improved most.

Hank Trent
hanktrent@gmail.com

[OldKingCrow]

Re: Where does THIS END of the hobby need to improve MOST?

Well, then, here's a question. What is "this end" of the hobby? Hank Trent
hanktrent@gmail.com

For me this end of the hobby is broad spectrum but has as its foundation: a good faith commitment to use primary historical research as the basis for everything.

I think you can be a productive, contrubuting member on this end of the hobby but forge your own historically representative trail outside of the events which are intended for particpants at an elite level. My ego is not brusied, nor do I feel less of a person / historian to recognize I can not produce an accomplished Trentian impression or historically representative ones such as these:



In fact, I am stoked to see such focus and accomplishment. So much that I driven to spectate events to experience such impressions in historical settings. I have also been very appreciative and made the most out of the priviledge in being invited / included at events within my lane by various leaders here.

But I have and still do some pretty amazing things within my own spehere of influence and cadre of like-minded pards. I am confident to say outside of physical shortcomings, my history heaviness is as heavy as the next guy's and perhaps heavier than many.

CJ Rideout
Tampa, Florida

[john duffer]

Re: Where does THIS END of the hobby need to improve MOST?

" I'd like to see an event where the only shots fired were those to clear the muskets at the end of the event. Why can't we spend a weekend in the woods just watching the enemy across a field? Or just marching toward a common destination along seperate routes? "

I agree Joe but not everyone else does. After my "A Routine Patrol" event I had a gentleman literally curse me out in the parking lot because he didn't see an enemy or fire a shot all weekend. (most routine patrols apparently incured 50% casualties) and at the officer's meeting at Rich Mountain the Fate Cards nearly started a small riot because folks didn't come all that way to fire one or two shots and get hit. No doubt the original gentlemen felt the same way. You're talking about the upper end of the upper end.

On a side note, I haven't done anything in a couple of years but I doubt things have changed all that much. I believe the stitch counting farb bullying hardcore is greatly exaggerated. I think this comes from a hand-full of hardkewls at mainstream events and one or two folks on the Internet. This is probably the single most given excuse for not attending EBUFU events but I've never seen anyone turned away at a good event, except for those not registered and trying to crash, regardless of kit. Two items I see/hear lately that could be improved are more realistic US/CS ratios and a more realistic officer/enlisted ratio.