Appropriate Trim Color for Type 1 Richmond Depot Jackets?

[dirtyshirt]

I am gonna throw this question out here, but did it say in Jensen's article that there are not any RD1's that survive today? Actual identified Tyoe 1's? I may be WAY off base here, but for some reason my memory wires are firing telling me I had seen that at one point. I know a lot of jackets resembled Type 1's but are actually commutation jackets with different trimmings...

[Ian McWherter]

Re: Searching for instructions on adding woven tape to a RD jacket

I am gonna throw this question out here, but did it say in Jensen's article that there are not any RD1's that survive today? Actual identified Tyoe 1's? I may be WAY off base here, but for some reason my memory wires are firing telling me I had seen that at one point. I know a lot of jackets resembled Type 1's but are actually commutation jackets with different trimmings...

Exactly, so why did everyone at some point decide that black would be the most appropriate trim for reproductions of these jackets used for infantry impressions? Since no original RD I survives and all we have to go on are period photographs why is blue ruled out?

[dirtyshirt]

Re: Searching for instructions on adding woven tape to a RD jacket

Exactly, so why did everyone at some point decide that black would be the most appropriate trim for reproductions of these jackets used for infantry impressions? Since no original RD I survives and all we have to go on are period photographs why is blue ruled out?

Good question Ian. Maybe it is just our end of the hobby's fear of "reenactorisms" where you find Red Yellow and Blue in abundance within the mainstream's sutler row. Just my 2 cents, and now you have me feeling guilty for having a Richmond Depot with black trim. 'sigh' I guess back to the drawing board:)

I would like to see this discussed in more depth. Maybe we can get a separate thread started?

[LibertyHallVols]

Re: Appropriate Trim Color for Type 1 Richmond Depot Jackets?

At Brandon's suggestion, I split this discussion into its own thread.

Enjoy!

[dirtyshirt]

Re: Appropriate Trim Color for Type 1 Richmond Depot Jackets?

Thanks John!

Okay everyone,
We say we shouldn't wear uniform items that aren't based off of some kind of documented surviving original, or detailed first person account. So when it comes to trim on "Type 1" Richmond Depot Jackets, what do we do? If anyone has any kind of first person account or any opinions or theories on this particular topic that Ian pointed out, let's have it.

[Jake]

Re: Appropriate Trim Color for Type 1 Richmond Depot Jackets?

Black was common for militia units, piped or solid in early war. I suppose other colors were used but how common? Something worth looking into.

[FranklinGuardsNYSM]

Re: Appropriate Trim Color for Type 1 Richmond Depot Jackets?

The effect of the 7th NYSM cannot be overlooked; they—and their grey-trimmed-with-black uniforms—found themselves in Virginia showing off their stuff quite a bit during the antebellum period.

[Ian McWherter]

Re: Appropriate Trim Color for Type 1 Richmond Depot Jackets?

I'm not trying to say that black trim wasn't used or that it would've been uncommon, but just how common would it have been for RD "Type I" or "Type I Transitional" jackets? Obviously there was a conscience effort made to produce regulation branch of service trimmed jackets, there is the extant original "Type II" worn by Pvt. John Blair Royal of the Richmond Howitzers trimmed in red as well as extant photographs supposedly showing these jackets that are tinted red. So, if precious time and resources were devoted to producing these jackets trimmed in artillery branch of service color, why wouldn't have examples been produced in infantry branch of service color? That is really my only question, it seems logical. What would the commonality of black trim actually have been? At most living history events these days nearly every RD "Type I" jacket seen will be trimmed in de facto black, is this truly representative of what would have been issued? What evidence is there really indicating that black would have been more common and therefore more correct than blue?

[Andy Ackeret]

Re: Appropriate Trim Color for Type 1 Richmond Depot Jackets?

I don't think there is an easy answer to this question.

As was noted in the other thread, Jensen notes the E.C.N. Green jacket is trimmed in dark blue, but the chevrons are black velvet.

Mr. McWherter already referenced the Jenkins jacket being trimmed in black.

The 5th Louisiana frock coat in the Troiani collection is trimmed in black, the Adger frock coat in the Troiani collection is trimmed in black, the Gilmore jacket in the MOC is trimmed at least partially in black, the Lester frock coat at the MOC is trimmed at least partially in black. We also have existing Virginia militia uniforms trimmed in black and North Carolina coats trimmed in black (Echoes of Glory). Are any of those coats RD 1's? No, but please bear with me a bit longer. I'll also be the first to admit that the collections referenced also contain coats trimmed in blue, but let me continue.

Mr. Hermann makes reference to the 7th NY influence. Ron Field in Uniforms of the Confederate Army speaks of that as well with a few quotations from pre-war sources showing Virginia militia regiments beginning to wear gray with black trim because of the influence of the 7th.

The various images in the Jensen article (some of which also appear in larger form in his Johnny Reb: The Uniform of the Confederate Army) show the trim and chevrons on the jackets to appear dark in wet plate photography.

The link to these color wheels have been posted before, I don't think it hurts to post them again:
http://sewingbird.1skinnygirl.com/ga...colorwheel.htm

For fun, a quick listing of the pictures attributed to be RD 1's in Jensen's article:

Charles H. Powell - Cavalry
Unidentified - Artillery
Austin S. Morris - branch of service not listed
Thomas Crowder Owens - Infantry
William Moore and Friend - Artillery
Theodore C Howard - Artillery

Since most fellows portray infantry, let's make this simple and not attempt to analyze the colors of the artillery, cavalry and unknown branch jackets. That leaves us with one image of an RD 1 to base an infantry impression on.

Can I say with 100% certainty that the Owens jacket is trimmed in black? No I can't. Can period photos be relied upon 100% for color analysis? No, of course not. But as best as I can see from looking at some of the photo, and comparing to the color wheel, I would say it does appear to be in the range of either black or in the yellow-red part of the spectrum as opposed to blue.

Wearing any garment that is not based on an original will always leave a certain amount of "fudge factor." So, that means that we, as historians, have to make the best educated guess that we can.

Based on the common use of black chevrons, the evidence cited above of other jackets and coats trimmed in black, and my squinting at color wheels and the Owens jacket (as well as many other photos over the years, of many coats of many types), I would support the idea that an RD 1 could be trimmed in black. I have one, trimmed in black, and I feel confident wearing it as an example of an eastern CS coat to cover a certain timeframe.

Does Mr. McWherter make a good point about re-examining our thought processes? Yes, absolutely. Is he correct in proposing that an RD 1 very well could have been trimmed in blue? I would say so, and I don't think I would scoff at anyone wearing one so trimmed.

I think here, baring a jacket suddenly appearing in somebody's attic, this is an area where an educated guess is the best answer we have. I know what my looking at the evidence tells me. As others here frequently say, "your mileage may vary."

[dirtyshirt]

Re: Appropriate Trim Color for Type 1 Richmond Depot Jackets?

Andy,
I agree with you. This is one of those situations where we have to ask ourselves what degree of "gray area" we're willing to accept. We definitely need to keep looking for solid evidence for things like this anywhere we can. I have to believe that there were jackets of the RD1 type trimmed in all three of the branch service colors. But your few examples of surviving issued jackets and frocks does point to more black trimming than anything. This is a lot like contemplating the end of space, and hey, Scientists learn something new about that everyday. All we can do is keep looking, and hoping for that attic relic to pop up one day.

[Ian McWherter]

Re: Appropriate Trim Color for Type 1 Richmond Depot Jackets?

For every Confederate issue garment trimmed in black there is a least one trimmed in blue, the Nashville Depot frock coats, Littlerock Quartermaster frock coats, the famous "Columbus Depot" jackets, Department of Alabama jackets and Peter Tait jackets trimmed in blue all come to mind. So, there were considerable efforts made to produce garments trimmed in blue throughout the war by different manufacturing facilities, why would the Richmond Depot early in the war have been any different?

[Andy Ackeret]

Re: Appropriate Trim Color for Type 1 Richmond Depot Jackets?

So, there were considerable efforts made to produce garments trimmed in blue throughout the war by different manufacturing facilities, why would the Richmond Depot early in the war have been any different?

That is a good question. I just don't know if there is enough evidence for definitive answer in either direction.

[Prodical Reb]

Re: Appropriate Trim Color for Type 1 Richmond Depot Jackets?

According to Troiani's Regiments and Uniforms of the Civil War, Mississippi color of trim for the infantry was red. Charleston (SC) Zouave Cadets had grey uniforms trimmed in red worn the 1st time on 16 Dec, 1861, 6 days before secession was annouced. Stanley Marksmen, Co H 14th NC infantry had grey uniforms trimmed in red grosgrain ribbon. This is recorded in the citizens minute books of the committee. Dark green was a popular color for rifle companies, it was a traditional European color for marksmen. These would all appear as a dark color in a period photo.

Granted these aren't examples of a RD 1 but are examples of early uniforms.

[BrandonEnglish]

Re: Appropriate Trim Color for Type 1 Richmond Depot Jackets?

I'm no expert in the area of RD I's and their trimmings and I may be WAAAAY off the mark here so I apologize in advance, but, would it be a viable option to look into the availability of blue/red/yellow/etc dyes, fabric, trimming, etc coming out of the Richmond area? What if it was a tough item to come by but black was an easy purchase or easily made. Again, I may be talking out my... but I just wanted to throw it out there.

[dirtyshirt]

Re: Appropriate Trim Color for Type 1 Richmond Depot Jackets?

That's not a bad idea. I had thought about the same thing, knowing that those colors could be more difficult to get in dye, but I am not too sure.