Appropriate Trim Color for Type 1 Richmond Depot Jackets?

[mdougher]

Re: Appropriate Trim Color for Type 1 Richmond Depot Jackets?

How do you know for sure that this jacket is from the 63-65 period? Fine English cloth was being imported into the Confederacy starting in mid-62.

Im saying its not a type 1, looks a lot like a type 3, and that is how it is being presented by the owner. According to Les Jensons article on Confederate uniforms, Type 3 Richmond jackets were 64-65 time period.

http://www.military-historians.org/c...federate-2.htm

[brown]

Re: Appropriate Trim Color for Type 1 Richmond Depot Jackets?

Am I the only one willing to question the assertion that it is a RDIII? The pattern used on Richmonds was very common beyond that source and we seem to throw a Richmond label around for anything with a 6 piece body, and nine buttons, regardless of whether it has 2 piece sleeves or any other indicators of Richmond production. I have no proof it isn't an RDIII, but dealers are exactly the first source of info in my book. I'd like to see what expert documentation the dealer is offering with it; a copy of the Jensen articles?

[mdougher]

Re: Appropriate Trim Color for Type 1 Richmond Depot Jackets?

My only point is it is not a type 1, thats it. This thread is about trim colors on the type 1, not the type 3, 2, 1 1/2, commutation, frockcoats, ect ect ect. THe comment was not intended to begin yet another debate on Richmond jackets and years of origin.

[bAcK88]

Re: Appropriate Trim Color for Type 1 Richmond Depot Jackets?

Am I the only one willing to question the assertion that it is a RDIII? The pattern used on Richmonds was very common beyond that source and we seem to throw a Richmond label around for anything with a 6 piece body, and nine buttons, regardless of whether it has 2 piece sleeves or any other indicators of Richmond production. I have no proof it isn't an RDIII, but dealers are exactly the first source of info in my book. I'd like to see what expert documentation the dealer is offering with it; a copy of the Jensen articles?

Indeed! On display in the Museum of the Confederacy in Richmond is a jacket that looks identical to a RD 3 but the wearer, a Virginia infantry captain, was killed in June of 1861

And although Jenson's article was groundbreaking on the subject, the study is now very dated. Quite frankly I'm still surprised that many re-enactors use it as the authority on Confederate jackets. A great source yes, but the only one?

[Minieball577]

Re: Appropriate Trim Color for Type 1 Richmond Depot Jackets?

"Quite frankly I'm still surprised that many re-enactors use it as the authority on Confederate jackets."

What single source do you suggest? I know there are many different tidbits scattered throughout many different articles and books, but one of the things that keeps the Jensen article as a go-to is that it contains a good discussion about one single topic, and for that the study is still very useful.

Do you have a comparable article that would help bring Jensen up to date?

[PenPusher]

Re: Appropriate Trim Color for Type 1 Richmond Depot Jackets?

Had a quick look in the Citizens File on Footnote, both black and yellow braid were available in Petersburg in April 1861, and white taffeta ribbon was purchased by the quartermasters dept in Richmond, in October 1861. Lots of ribbon and tape being purchased but no color, also lots of velvet ribbon; again no color.

[FloridaConscript]

Re: Appropriate Trim Color for Type 1 Richmond Depot Jackets?

Am I the only one willing to question the assertion that it is a RDIII? The pattern used on Richmonds was very common beyond that source and we seem to throw a Richmond label around for anything with a 6 piece body, and nine buttons, regardless of whether it has 2 piece sleeves or any other indicators of Richmond production. I have no proof it isn't an RDIII, but dealers are exactly the first source of info in my book. I'd like to see what expert documentation the dealer is offering with it; a copy of the Jensen articles?

actually I think Pritchard (owner of Old South Antiques) has Jensen examine each of his clothing articles and then write a letter or abstract on the article. The coat in question could be a private purchase item by an officer or from one the of the well to do city guard type of units. to assume off the bat that this is an issue item is a mistake. keep in mind the uniforms (m page lapham) of the wash artillery that were privately purchased in 64. good stuff was available....for a steep price.

[Shockoe Hill Cats]

Re: Appropriate Trim Color for Type 1 Richmond Depot Jackets?

Then came along a few hardcore guys with reproductions of these jackets based largely on the Kent, Paine & Co. jacket trimmed in black.

I may be noted that Kent, Paine & Co. is perhaps not a good example of Richmond Depot-produced clothing. Charles E. Kent, Robert A. Paine and William G. Paine were independent contractors that ran both a wholesale dry goods and clothing store at 163 and 165 Main Street in Richmond, Va. as early as 1856. I am unsure whether or not they were mass-producing garments specifically for the Confederate government.

Furthermore, after talking to the Museum of the Confederacy's Director of Collections Robert Hancock, these garments were only identified to Kent, Paine, & Co. because Courtney Jenkin's company had a requisition of uniforms from them. No interior makers stamps/labels are present. Thus, this particular jacket is not positively identified to Kent, Paine, & Co. as the maker. A second source with perhaps a description of what these jackets looked like would be most helpful!

A photo of the trim for your perusal:

[Busterbuttonboy]

Re: Appropriate Trim Color for Type 1 Richmond Depot Jackets?

Mr Spellman,
Thanks for the information for the Kent, Paine an Co. This is very interesting and changes my interpretation of the jacket indeed. This information no doubt derived from secondary and primary sources speaks to Mr Backus's comment,

"And although Jenson's article was groundbreaking on the subject, the study is now very dated. Quite frankly I'm still surprised that many re-enactors use it as the authority on Confederate jackets. A great source yes, but the only one? "

Well said Bill. As historians, amateur historians, weekend warriors or otherwise its important to supplement secondary sources with primary sources and continued to expound upon research where we can. There are great number of letters, account books, returns, ship manifests, etc which are available across the country to help give us as interpreters a better idea of where, when and how.

Back to Trim Color Please!

Here are some notes from my records, files and research dungeon. I realize these are officers.
A.W. Brickter (Sp)... Blue Pants, Black Trim side pocket. July 9th 1862
Lt Edwards, ...matching pants and jacket bound yellow. August 26th, 1862
T. J. Watson, Va Calv, ...Grey Pants and Jacket No III, yellow bound, August 26th, 1862
Lt. P. Smith, Va Inf, ...blue pants, black stripe and lace August 11, 1862

[Rich Mason]

Re: Appropriate Trim Color for Type 1 Richmond Depot Jackets?

Gents,

Thought I would throw this in as I found it interesting when I first read it.

This is from the book "Defend the Valley. A Shenandoah Family in The Civil War" by Margeretta Barton Colt. Oxford University Press 1994. Page 199.

This is an excerpt from a letter by Fanny J. Barton dated 27 November, 1862, to her Brother, Bolling W. Barton, who was in VMI at the time (two of her other brothers were in the 2nd VA Inf):

"We are all getting Confederate dresses. You don't know how pretty they are. I belong to the infantry as mine is grey, trimmed with black. Anna's is grey flannel trimmed with red she is in the artillery service. Won't we make brave soldiers !"

When I first read this, it was after a discussion with a couple of unit members about black versus blue trim for Infantry in Virginia units. I found this really interesting, as it seemed an example that black was excepted as the trim color for infantry by some civilians. Granted it is "anecdotal", but interesting and a little thought provoking.

Now back to your regularly scheduled authenticity discussion....

Rich Mason

[PaulJ]

Re: Appropriate Trim Color for Type 1 Richmond Depot Jackets?

Hi,
I think there is something of interest to this thread on another recent thread (see post #4):-

http://www.authentic-campaigner.com/forum/showthread.php?28900-Cadet-Grey-Jackets-All-Kersey

Although it doesn't refer to an RD1 specifically, it does include an illustration of an RD2 "coat worn by Green in the Museum of North Carolina history" reputedly found on the Gettysburg battlefield with the all important blue (rank chevron) trim! I recall seeing a jacket just like this at the Gettysburg Visitor centre in September 2006 - either there are two similar or it was the same jacket on loan to Gettysburg (or vice verse...).

Regards

[Minieball577]

Re: Appropriate Trim Color for Type 1 Richmond Depot Jackets?

Mr Spellman,
"And although Jenson's article was groundbreaking on the subject, the study is now very dated. Quite frankly I'm still surprised that many re-enactors use it as the authority on Confederate jackets. A great source yes, but the only one? "

"...its important to supplement secondary sources with primary sources and continued to expound upon research where we can. There are great number of letters, account books, returns, ship manifests, etc which are available across the country to help give us as interpreters a better idea of where, when and how"

While I agree with the first part of what you said, that it is important to SUPPLEMENT secondary sources with primary sources, your second half of the statement, RE: the great number of...[STUFF]...available across the country..." suggests exactly why the Jensen article is still cited so often, and is the absolute basis of most people's understanding. Simply put, it makes sense of the diaspora of information then available and compiles it in one single source. Until someone incorporates the new data available from your wide variety of sources, Jensen, even if flawed or dated or limited, is still going to remain the standard of understanding.

[GrumpyDave]

Re: Appropriate Trim Color for Type 1 Richmond Depot Jackets?

I don't know if this would be useful or not. It's an older article. I haven't looked at it for a while.

http://www.military-historians.org/company/journal/confederate/confederate-1.htm

[rake]

Re: Searching for instructions on adding woven tape to a RD jacket

Exactly, so why did everyone at some point decide that black would be the most appropriate trim for reproductions of these jackets used for infantry impressions? Since no original RD I survives and all we have to go on are period photographs why is blue ruled out?

Not saying that blue should be ruled out, but in context, blue as the infantry branch color was very new at the time of the war. White tape had been the infantry color from 1808 to the 1851 regulations, and the white trimmed jackets were still issued in the 1857 Mormon campaign. As stated previously, black trim was associated with many militia units, and codified in some state regulations.

At least in my mind, there is the issue of how many RD1s were really depot issue uniforms, as opposed to a rather generic style of militia or commutation uniform. Assuming men originally report in 1861 with militia or commutation uniforms, depot supply for the replacements would not logically appear until early 1862, and we then assume that the RD2s are appearing by the summer of 1862 ..........

[Citman05]

Re: Searching for instructions on adding woven tape to a RD jacket

At least in my mind, there is the issue of how many RD1s were really depot issue uniforms, as opposed to a rather generic style of militia or commutation uniform. Assuming men originally report in 1861 with militia or commutation uniforms, depot supply for the replacements would not logically appear until early 1862, and we then assume that the RD2s are appearing by the summer of 1862 ..........

Thank you! I agree 100%. "RD1 and RD 2" produced by the depot are the same thing. I believe they were producing this "early RD jacket" from early 62-end of the war.