Early war flintlock musket - Can you help identify?

[tlindgren]

Hoping someone with more experience and a better eye might be able to give some insight to what this musket might be. Sorry in advance to the poor quality of the pic.

Backstory: This is a pic of a private of Co. F 10th Tennessee CSA. In the book Rebel Sons of Erin, it is referenced that the unit was originally given left over flintlocks from the War of 1812. It is also noted that Tower of London was on the lockplate. Based on the pic the only thing that my eye catches is the barrel bands. I think it looks more like a 1795 US Springfield.

Unfortuately I don't have the book handy so I can't qoute it. If I can find it I will add it.

Thanks in advance.

[David Fox]

Re: Early war flintlock musket - Can you help identify?

A quantity of various types of Brown Bess muskets fell into American hands during The War of 1812. The British were then still issuing recent production long land pattern pieces with 46" barrels to elete units, there were officer and NCO fusils, and the model patterned after the India musket (w/ 39" barrel) was, of course, general British issue. Other British muskets were purchased by States and militia and doubtless a residuary of short land pattern (42" barrels) were left left over from the Revolution. U.S. arsenals had disposed of all this obsolescent hardware in garage sales before 1861, and don't I wish I could have travelled back to participate! I say "obsolescent' rather than obsolete, because an 1812-era British musket was closer to new in the Civil War than a WW II M1 Garand is today, and one thinks of the Garand as still being an effective weapon. That said, the photograph is not of a British type. Perhaps it's a photographer's prop, evidence of mixed unit issue, or later issue.

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Early war flintlock musket - Can you help identify?

Hallo!

Too fuzzy for me. :(

But yes, the bands could make it a US "Charleville" pattern of some vintage. The old British stuff was pinned.
With bands, it could be French, or Austrian, or conceivable from a number of countries.

And yes, as shared, it can be troublesome as to whether the arms in Period images are the owners issuances or the photographers' props. Think of men being allowed to leave camp with their arms to visit a photographer's studio in the next town. ;) :) )

Curt

[Brandon Ledvina]

Re: Early war flintlock musket - Can you help identify?

You know Tim I never thought of it being a photographer prop. I don't know why it never came to mind.

As for the photo it is of Private William Wood. Pvt. Wood is still wearing the original uniform that the 10th Tenn. was issued. They would have had them up until their capture at Ft. Donelson when they were not consolidated so the the questioned mixed unit or later issue is out. After reading the prop theory it sounds like that would be very likely. Unfortunately the photo is as hazy as the history of what they were issued. It would be great if someone would be able to find a document that mentions it. I do have an original document from the 10th Tenn. but it only mentions what a Captain paid for two rooms and fire wood. Not to mention its from 1864.

[Craig L Barry]

Re: Early war flintlock musket - Can you help identify?

Most likely a US 1816, antebellum Southern arsenals were loaded with them, more than a few still in flint.
It could be a US 1795 (I,II or III) but they were comparatively rare in terms of number produced.
The workhorse of the US military flintlock muskets was the 1816/22.

So the flintie it would have to be of domestic manufacture as neither side imported any muskets not
converted to percussion. The sentiment was that American arsenals had enough obsolete flintlock
muskets and the push was for "modern" arms.

[Daniel]

Re: Early war flintlock musket - Can you help identify?

Brandon, The history of what they were issued might not be so hazy. Years ago I was looking at the Records of the State of Tennessee Military & Financal Board at the Tennessee State Library. And I copied down what was issued on July 4, 1861 to Captain Morgan at Fort Henry. The only Captain Morgan that I could find was Captain St. Clair M. Morgan of Co. F, 10th Tennessee. There were issued 80 flintlocks, 80 cartridge boxes, 80 brush and picks, 160 gun flints, 80 gun slings, 80 waist belts, 8 spring vises, 8 ball screws, 4 saber belts and 84 knapsacks.

Wonderful picture. The picture is very hazy. What about the jacket? It looks like a shell jacket with maybe four buttons, collar trim and cuff trim? And if that is cuff trim is it a band like the Columbus Depot jackets or does it go up to a point? So close yet so far. Hope someone has better eyes than I do.Or another picture of a member of the 10th shows up.

Thanks Tim for posting the picture.

Dan Stewart

[David Fox]

Re: Early war flintlock musket - Can you help identify?

Tim, when I referred to "mixed unit issue", I meant individual regiments and even companies at this time were very often issued a mixture of weapons. I regret being unclear.

[Brandon Ledvina]

Re: Early war flintlock musket - Can you help identify?

Dan, Going off the top of my head since I have my copy of Rebel Sons of Erin lent out. The Uniform was gray with scarlet piping. It was a shell jacket with scarlet lining. Underneath they wore a scarlet shirt which made a good target while building Fort Henry however they never had a battle casualty until Raymond. You can also notice the scarlet kepi. The uniforms were bought by then Lt. Col. and Ex-Mayor of Nashville Randall McGavock who also wore a green feather in his hat. It is interesting that even though they were one of the best equipped regiments in the AOT if not the Confederacy they were still using flintlocks.

Thank you also for the info that you found. I assume they didn't give what type of flintlock was issued?

There are also some other photos of the 10th. I don't have time to post them now but I should be able to get them up for you soon.

[Craig L Barry]

Re: Early war flintlock musket - Can you help identify?

One other point, flintlocks were still in use longer than you might imagine. There is a diary entry from
a Trans-Mississippi CS soldier dating from mid-1864 who recollected getting his left cheek blackened courtesy
of the soldier next to him when an overcharged pan shot flaming powder out of the vent. This was in Joe Bilby's book
on Civil War arms (IIRC). No flash guards in use, of course.

Bilby opines that this flintlock was probably a favorite hunting rifle brought from home and by no means
were military flintlocks in wide use that late in the war. Still, flintlock hunting rifles in mid-1864?

[Brandon Ledvina]

Re: Early war flintlock musket - Can you help identify?

Here are some pictures that I had mentioned. I wasn't going to post all of them but I thought some might like to see.

Future Colonel Adolphus Heiman. Pre War



Colonel Adolphus Heiman



The next four are of Colonel Randall McGavock. I know the first one isn't the best quality but he is wearing a Confederate uniform.









Private Patrick Griffin F Company. According to Ed Gleason who spent countless hours going over rosters and documents, Patrick Griffin never rose above the rank of Private so I would assume that the first photo has photographer props. The second is Pvt. Griffin later in life. Again not sure on officers look but I don't know much about what they would have worn at a reunion or whenever this was taken.





The next two are of James M. McKee, Alias: Jack McQue. Note the kepi on the first pic. It almost looks to have an oilcloth cover.





Father Emmeran Bliemel. Note of interest he was the first Catholic Priest killed in Action in an American war.

[Daniel]

Re: Early war flintlock musket - Can you help identify?

Brandon, Thank you for the description of the uniforms as well as the pictures of some of the officers and men. The records did not state what type of flintlocks Captain Morgan's Company were issued. I am sure you are aware of that famous quote by Capt. Jesse Taylor. "The best equipped regiment of his command, the 10th Tennessee , was armed with old flintlock "Tower of London" muskets that had 'done the state some service in the war of 1812." It is interesting to note that of the equipement issued to them that no bayonets or scabbards are listed. I have always wondered what type of knapsacks were issued to them.

Dan Stewart

[Craig L Barry]

Re: Early war flintlock musket - Can you help identify?

They may have had some leftover Tower muskets from the War of 1812, but that image is not one of them.
As Herr Kammeraden points out, British flintlocks from that period did not utilize barrel bands (as pictured)
but were pinned to the stock.

[tlindgren]

Re: Early war flintlock musket - Can you help identify?

I wonder if it might be worth searching the TN state archives to see if there is any records of weapons purchases/transfers to the state around the time of the War of 1812. I also wonder if there was an armory in or near Nashville that the muskets would have come from.

Anyone know if TN has a online archive? Probably to much to hope.

[David Fox]

Re: Early war flintlock musket - Can you help identify?

Although not an answer to comrade Lindgren's query directly above, but significant to the thread, according to Todd ("American Military Equipage 1851-1872"), Tennessee's small arms arrangement was unique at the Civil War's outbreak. The state superintendant of weights and measures, of all people, maintained the State's arsenal in the north basement of the capitol building. In January, 1861 it held 8,761 muskets and rifles, only 280 of which were percussion lock(!) 4,300 of the flint guns were "badly damaged". There were 350 "unservicable" flint carbines (whatever those could have been...Halls?). In addition, State milita units had checked-out 1,815 muskets and 228 pistols. For its allotment persuant to the Militia Act of 1808, Tennessee prior to secession chose 701 M.1855 rifle-muskets, 381 .58 calibre cadet muskets, plus "sample weapons". According to Todd, no effort had yet been expended to convert flinters nor repair the repairable until early in the War. By April, 1861 the State had acquired an additional 1,400 rifle-muskets (or perhaps rifled-muskets) and the next month the Confederate government parceled out to Tennessee an additional 4,000 nondescript muskets, likely cast-offs from Virginia who shared-out 10,000 flint muskets (Todd, again) to other States early in the hostilities. In July, '61 according to Todd, the State had 22 field-ready infantry regiments plus two cavalry regiments, the latter equipped with sabres and pistols or, alternatively, double barrel shotguns.

[Daniel]

Re: Early war flintlock musket - Can you help identify?

Craig, I agree that the weapon is not a Tower of London musket. And could be very well a photographers prop as others have said on this thread. I will say that Capt. Jesse Taylor was at Fort Henry and I wasn't. So I will believe him when he said that he saw the 10th with Tower of London muskets. David thank you for the Tennessee arsenal information. It really shows that there were a lot of flintlocks available. Tim is right that I would be good to check with the State Archives regarding the War of 1812 records. And I think checking the rolls of the 10th Tenn might be good. I several cases I have seen requests for ammo in officers records. I think it would be worth a search to attempt to find out the caliber of ammo the 10th was receiving in 1861.

Dan Stewart