Weapon defarbing

[David Fox]

There's a considerable, surprisingly passionate thread on the horrors of firearm defarbing on the North-South Skirmish site, www.n-ssa.org . Some time ago a like, grumpy editorial was aired in "Man at Arms" magazine. FYI.

[Dan Wambaugh]

Re: Weapon defarbing

David,

I have searched in vain and not found the thread you mention. Can you point me to it with a direct link or even just the title and sub folder? Thank you!

[LibertyHallVols]

Re: Weapon defarbing

Yes, please do find a link! I would be interested in the basis for objections in both the NSSA and Man at Arms.

[David Fox]

Re: Weapon defarbing

For the N-SSA discussion, check under "Bulletin Board". Find "Wanted/For Sale Items". Scroll down to a 6 September heading "Why Defarbing?". The editor of "Man at Arms" was vapouring on the hideous possibility of someone innocently puchasing a defarbed musket thinking it original. As good as our defarbers are, it would take a world class knucklehead to confuse a tricked-out 1999 product of northern Italy for an 1862 Bridesburg original but, here in the Nanny State, all must be protected from themselves...even in gun magazines. I no longer have the magazine: a county deputy gathers such together and ships them to the troops in Iraq and Afghanistan.

[LibertyHallVols]

Re: Weapon defarbing

Here's the thread.

Arguments seem to be:
1) If the 1968 gun control act were amended to include muzzle loaders, then posession of a defarbed gun would be an "instant felony". BS, I say. Just look at the 1994 AWB... does the term "pre ban" sound familiar? Or "ex post facto"?

2) Someone might buy a defarbed Armi Sport thinking it was an original.
IMHO, anyone so foolish as to not know the differences between the real deal and a repop must want to be fooled. There are a lot of true 'fakers' out there, but a lot of the really skilled ones seem to be making Singers out of Rem Rand 1911A1's and 5-digit Garands out of 7-digit.

[Dan Wambaugh]

Re: Weapon defarbing

The argument that imported merchandise must be marked with a country of origin stamp if they are ever to be resold does not seem to hold water, either. Through a strict interpretation of the law cited in that thread, anyone who removed a "made in China" decal off of a child's toy, then later sold it at a garage sale or "mom to mom" sale or the like would be subject to a $100,000 fine just as much as someone selling a defarbed musket here on the forum. I can see where this law would be applied and enforced were it a Rolex watch or Prada handbag (even though it often isn't) but I don't see the Bridesburg company suing because an Armi Chiappa 1861 Springfield had their company's name put on it.

[KPavia]

Re: Weapon defarbing

IMO, that thread seemed motivated more out of dislike for reenactors than for a discussion on various interpretations of the law.

Besides, I doubt people like Todd Watts or John Zimmerman would openly run their business defarbing muzzleloaders if it was illegal.

[Craig L Barry]

Re: Weapon defarbing

There is a chapter in "The Civil War Musket" on this particular topic. You need to know the laws in your particular jurisdiction.
Serial numbers were (of course) not a feature of original Civil War-era firearms. However, in some areas it is illegal to file off
a serial number from any firearm which is why they are relocated on the bottom of the barrel out of sight.

States rights and all that.

[Marine Mike]

Re: Weapon defarbing

Federal laws are quoted, advisement that more restrictive laws are just liberl congress away and then it's out with a broad brush. Defarbing can be as little as changing the finish to a total makeover within the limitation of the imitation. The assumption presented is someone is out to defraud instead of someone simply trying to remove the 21st century from the visible portions of their military impression. The one point they seem to stick on was the removal of country of origin and the moving of the serial number to a less inconspicuous spot. However they're happy to recommend to the membership several places where you can get a new american replacement barrel of original or Italian repop profile. So I viewed as nothin' happenin' here folks, let's move along.

Mike Stein

[Johan Steele]

Re: Weapon defarbing

Several times in the last several years at Gunshows and relic shows I have seen defarbed weapons being priced as originals. In one case an M1842 was clearly a Zimmerman defarb as he has some distinctive habits. It happens and the gullible are out there. To be brutally honest the Zimmerman 42 defarb almost caught me, it wasn't until I took a hard look at the lock that I noted something odd. When I requested permission to pull her apart you could have seen sparks fly. When he refused I simply walked to the show owners and identified the booth as almost certainly selling a forgery.

I will not defarb my M1841 or M1861 for the simple reason that there are unscrupulous people out there who will do such w/ great enthusiam. Which is why there are a whole lot of JS Anchor stamps that are considerably newer than 1865 on weapons. We all are aware of the plethera of "dug" belt buckles w/ a bullet hole, it isn't reserved for the firearms hobby.

[OldKingCrow]

Re: Weapon defarbing

Several times in the last several years at Gunshows and relic shows I have seen defarbed weapons being priced as originals. To be brutally honest the Zimmerman 42 defarb almost caught me, it wasn't until I took a hard look at the lock that I noted something odd.

Could you share what was odd about the lock ? As a Zimmerman 42 owner (well former - just sold it) my gun was no mistake night and day different than an orignal ? Especially in terms of stock contour / thickness and abundance of MIM parts.

Thanks in advance.

CJ Rideout
Tampa, Florida

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Weapon defarbing

Hallo!

Moderator hat on...

Please leave modern political references (liberal congress) out of posts.

Moderator hat off...

Yeah, annoying is it not. We get complaints for BOTH identifying moderating of the rules, as well as not identifying moderatings.

:) :) :)

We have these discussions every so often, and the accurate advise has already been shared. NUG (normally, usually, generally) most CW reproductions being pre1898 type non-metallic guns are NOT firearms under federal and most state laws. The laws applying to "firearms" to not apply.
HOWEVER, states and local jurisdictions can do their won things and make them "firearms."

Know the law(s):

1. Where you live, and
2. Where you are going to be driving through, and
3. Where you are going to be playing.

My question is "defarbed weapons being priced as originals." Is the question about repros being sold as originals in terms of frauds. fakes, and counterfeits? Or is the question about how the prices for so-called "de-farbing" services can take the price of a repro into the lower end range of originals?

Yes, there is sometimes and somewhere some "anti-reactor" bias going around, even among reenactors. Such as "Why would you pay X dollars for an Italian repro when you can own an original for the same money or a little more or less? Originals are much more authentic than repros!"

D.B. Curt

[Jimmayo]

Re: Weapon defarbing

Friend of mine had a Navy Arms Springfield kit he put toghther 20+ years ago. When he sold all his stuff at a CW show several people thought the Springfield was an original. There are many people out there who want a CW firearm and are not knowledgable enough to tell the difference between a defarbed gun and an original. Same with cartridge boxes. I have seen a couple on e-bay lately that the seller did not know he was selling a reproduction. Remember: Buyer Beware!

[Johan Steele]

Re: Weapon defarbing

Could you share what was odd about the lock ? As a Zimmerman 42 owner (well former - just sold it) my gun was no mistake night and day different than an orignal ? Especially in terms of stock contour / thickness and abundance of MIM parts.

Thanks in advance.

CJ Rideout
Tampa, Florida

The area around the lock and the way Zimmerman does his stamps appears rather distinctive to me. And I've handled and own an original M1842. They're different enough that anyone who has actually handled an original will note it. But those who wouldn't know an original M1842 from an Armisport repop w/out the markings wouldn't.

Most of the italian repops would be better served w/ a 2 x 4 as a stock when compared to the originals.

Most of the reputable smiths that do defarb weapons won't play the forgery game but there are those out there w/ enough of the requisite skill to make a go at it. A well used Miroku M1861 or AS M1842 that has been fully defarbed by a Todd Watts or maybe even a Zimmerman can be more easily altered into something resembling an original than a stock out of the box 2x4 stocked Euroarms. And there are clearly people out there willing to make a buck by any means. Add into the mix the plethera of original P53's coming out of Afghanistan/Nepal etc in the last several years than can be converted by a competent smith into something they aren't and you have a source for some good forgeries.

I for one didn't think it was plausable to convert one of those Nepal sourced P53's into a passable ACW weapon. I was proven wrong when I held what by all appearances appeared to be a Windsor marked P53, the only oddity were the stamps, the broad arrow in particular which seemed off. Upon further questioning I discovered it was a project gun the owner had built up from 2 different Nepal weapons & some original parts from Lodgewood. The only difference between it and an original were the off Broad Arrows (He turned them 90 degrees). Which had been done on purpose by the owner to distinguish it from a true original. His investment? Less than $800 in parts & labor, if he wanted to add a JS Anchor stamp and claim it w/ some sort of hoaky CS provenance he could likely turn a tidy profit, thankfully the man has morals and is more concerned w/ real Living History than dishonestly making some extra coin. For all practical purposes he had an original partsed gun which could easily be sold as an original ACW weapon by someone less honest.

[gsusat]

Re: Weapon defarbing

As both a collector of original items and a living historian I have an interest on both sides of this issue. In the 70's when the first repro 1863 came out the JAPAN stamp of the piece was always an irritant. Sometimes we would joke about J A Pan as town in southern Georgia. So making our weapons more correct is a good move. Having handled many many originals I think it is easy to tell the difference. Yet in the collecting world there are people coming in who have not handled many originals and cannot tell the difference or think they have stumbeled across a bargan. Or they see things at a yard sale and go from there. One of the things that amaze me in collecting is there is a number of collectors that do not research what they collect. Sometimes it is hard to find originals to look at.


I think this will bleed over into other original items. Esp. CS leather. The research on leather items is reflected in the quality of items out there. Not that the folks who produce the items are making them to be sold as fake, but with years and wear and changing hands there could be honest mistakes or intentonal misreprentations.

As a collector the leather items scare me more than the guns. With good marked original CS cartridge boxes bring over 10K that can be quite a temptation for someone. And while you may have handled a number of original firearms - how many original Baton Rouge Cartridge boxes have you seen. If you follow ebay I am sure you have seen repro US cartridge boxes and slings passed as original - I have.

I like the fact that some makers will mark their jackets in the sleve linings. Seems like descrete marking woulf go a long way. Still it is not foolprook - look at the number of Hanover Brass buckles that turn up being sold as original - not by Hanover brass but someone else down the line.

You know when the originals cost about the same as the originals it did not make much difference, but those days are gone.