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Confederate-Issue Austrian Lorenz

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  • Confederate-Issue Austrian Lorenz

    Gents:

    I have done a bit of research but have come up dry, and am looking for some input if anyone can offer it.

    I know that the majority of the 1854 Lorenz rifled muskets purchased by the Confederacy (apparently about 100,000 of them according to what I've read) found their way to the AoT and to Trans-Mississippi Confederate units, especially mid- to late-war. However, I have seen mention in other sources (Troiani, for example, in Soldiers in America 1754-1865) of their being carried by units within the ANV up to and including the spring '65 campaign and surrender at Appomattox CH.

    There is no unit specific information in these sources, however, and I am wondering if there are sources specific to individual units. So far, I have not been able to locate a research source to corroborate any of these claims.

    Were these "ANV" units actually other (western) department units on detached service perhaps during a particular campaign, or were there actually ANV units that were issued the Austrian 54? If so, which units were they and in what period would this issue have occurred?

    Thanks in advance for any input.
    Rich Libicer
    Fugi's Brown Water Mess

    6th North Carolina - 150th First Manassas, July 2011
    4th Texas Dismounted, Co. C - 150th Valverde, February 2012
    6th Mississippi Adjunct - 150th Shiloh, April 2012
    4th Texas Dismounted, Co. C - 150th Glorieta Pass, May 2012
    21st Arkansas Adjunct - 150th Prairie Grove, December 2012
    5th Confederate, Co. C - 150th Chickamauga, September 2013
    Haitus...... Until Now


  • #2
    Re: Confederate-Issue Austrian Lorenz

    I do know that almost all the units of the "Tramp Brigade" of South Carolina regiments (17th, 18th, 22nd, 23rd, 26th, & Holcombe Legion) were issued large numbers of Austrian rifles in late 1863 and early 1864 while they were stationed around Charleston. They were sent back up to Virginia in May 1864 and fought throughout the Petersburg siege. During this time I've seen ordnance reports stating they were issued Austrians, Enfields, CS Richmonds, and even a few smoothbores were still in the ranks.

    Will MacDonald

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    • #3
      Re: Confederate-Issue Austrian Lorenz

      Captain John M. Payne was the Confederate Ordnance officer in Wilmington, N.C., between July 19, 1863, and January 12, 1865. Begining on August 20, 1863, Payne began dispatching significant quantities of Austrian rifles and Austrian rifle ammunition that had been run through the blockade, to Colonel William Leroy Broun, CSA, who commanded the Richmond Arsenal. Since the Richmond Arsenal serviced the Army of Northern Virginia, presumably some number of them were issued to that army. Which units received them, I cannot tell you at this time.

      Regards,
      Don Dixon

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Confederate-Issue Austrian Lorenz

        While not ANV, I believe IIRC, that the VMI Cadets carried Austrians at New Market.
        Robert W. Hughes
        Co A, 2nd Georgia Sharpshooters/64th Illinois Inf.
        Thrasher Mess
        Operation Iraqi Freedom II 2004-2005
        ENG Brigade, 1st Cavalry Div. "1st Team!"
        Iraq & Afghanistan Veterans of America

        Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, "Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?"
        And I said "Here I am. Send me!" Isaiah 6:8

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Confederate-Issue Austrian Lorenz

          I have to find the reference but parts of the Stonewall Brigade was issued Lorenz rifles I believe in 1863. I see if I can find it and post later.
          Robert Ambrose

          Park Ranger
          Fort Frederick State Park, Maryland
          5th Virginia Infantry Co. K

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Confederate-Issue Austrian Lorenz

            Thanks gents. Good info so far.

            I didn't know that the Tramp Brigade were issued Lorez muskets, Will. I would have figured they would be outfitted with Enfields what with the Charleston port available to state procurement agents...That is interesting. Though by the late war the Enfields would definitely have been drying up.

            Don - do you have the specific sources I can go to for those transfers to the Richmond Arsenal in August '63?

            Looking forward to your future posts too, Robert. That is exactly the kind of info I am trying to track down.

            Thanks for all the help and input, and keep your powder dry!
            Rich Libicer
            Fugi's Brown Water Mess

            6th North Carolina - 150th First Manassas, July 2011
            4th Texas Dismounted, Co. C - 150th Valverde, February 2012
            6th Mississippi Adjunct - 150th Shiloh, April 2012
            4th Texas Dismounted, Co. C - 150th Glorieta Pass, May 2012
            21st Arkansas Adjunct - 150th Prairie Grove, December 2012
            5th Confederate, Co. C - 150th Chickamauga, September 2013
            Haitus...... Until Now

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Confederate-Issue Austrian Lorenz



              Here is the Tramp Brigade ordnance thread from last month. Shows some of the issues to the Brigade.

              Will MacDonald

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Confederate-Issue Austrian Lorenz

                Rich,

                The Museum of the Confederacy holds Payne's documentation. An abstract is contained in Whisker, James B.; Hartzler, Daniel D.; and Yantz, Larry W., Firearms From Europe (2nd Edition), State College, PA, Josten’s, 2002.

                Robert Hughes,

                Your information is correct. The VMI cadets carried 200 Austrian rifles at New Market. The balance of the Corps carried M1851 Springfield cadet muskets. The rifle carried by Cadet Private Charles H. Read is on display at the Hall of Valor on the New Market battlefield. It is a Muster 1854, Type I, infantry rifle, with fixed quadrangular bayonet. The barrel is bent at a severe angle from the shell that wounded Reed with a shell fragment above his right eye. Surprisingly, Reed survived the battle, and was a well known architect following the Civil War.

                Regards,
                Don Dixon

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Confederate-Issue Austrian Lorenz

                  There is an Austrian rifle (Lorenz) in the Hall of Valor museum at N. Market that took a ball to the barrel and was badly damaged.
                  IIRC, the placard said the museum discovered it was still loaded at some point.
                  Craig L Barry
                  Editor, The Watchdog, a non-profit 501[c]3
                  Co-author (with David Burt) Suppliers to the Confederacy
                  Author, The Civil War Musket: A Handbook for Historical Accuracy
                  Member, Company of Military Historians

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Confederate-Issue Austrian Lorenz

                    Although not the most scholarly source, my snipit of info comes from, The Men at Arms series, "The Army of Northern Virginia."
                    On page 20 it states: "An officer of the Stonewall Brigade noted in Janaury 1863 that, "during that time some Austiran rifles were distributed among the Second and Fifith (Virginia) Regiments."
                    Too bad there are no foot notes or Bibliograhpy so we could see who this officer might be for a better context, I looked at some other Brigade sources and couldn't find anything. I'll keep looking!
                    Robert Ambrose

                    Park Ranger
                    Fort Frederick State Park, Maryland
                    5th Virginia Infantry Co. K

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Confederate-Issue Austrian Lorenz

                      From the Stonewall Brigade website:
                      On May 26, 1862, Ted Barclay of the Liberty Hall Volunteers, Co. I 4th Virginia, wrote home that he was carrying a "Belgium gun."[3]

                      [3]. Charles W. Turner, ed. Ted Barclay, Liberty Hall Volunteers: Letters from the Stonewall Brigade. Natural Bridge Station: Rockbridge Publishing Company. 1992, p.71-72.

                      Robert Ambrose

                      Park Ranger
                      Fort Frederick State Park, Maryland
                      5th Virginia Infantry Co. K

                      Comment

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