a special way of firing, or reenactorism ?

[Charles Kaiser]

Hallo Kameraden,

please look at this Youtubevideo, is this kind of firing Reenactorism ?

1 Platoon, Rear Rank
2 Platon Front Rank
1 Platon Front Rank
2 Platon Rear Rank,

and then once again

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1IJS5T0xNR4&feature=related

[john duffer]

Re: a special way of firing, or reenactorism ?

It's not necessiarly a reenactorism per se - except it should be:

1st platoon rear rank
2nd platoon rear rank
1st platoon front rank
2nd platoon front rank
repeat as needed

I'd think there would be far fewer occasions where a standalone company was firing in the real deal but Macdougall advocates a battalion firing by wing and rank in this manner. Admittedly he's English but it's 1858 and there's nothing in U.S. manuals that prevents or precludes a thinking officer doing so (plus it's an innovation to English manuals as well).

[Jeremy Bevard]

Re: a special way of firing, or reenactorism ?

They do need to learn how to properly and safely charge cartridge. Their ready position could use some work too. Oh, and why the need to scream 1,2,1,2!!

[unionforever69th]

Re: a special way of firing, or reenactorism ?

They do need to learn how to properly and safely charge cartridge. Their ready position could use some work too. Oh, and why the need to scream 1,2,1,2!!

Those guys are some of the streamiest 'streamers that ever streamed. They're probably shouting like that because that's how they did it in Glory.

[john duffer]

Re: a special way of firing, or reenactorism ?

I was scared this might turn into an actual discussion about drill, I'm relieved to see it's an old fashioned farb bashing instead. :)

[unionforever69th]

Re: a special way of firing, or reenactorism ?

I was scared this might turn into an actual discussion about drill, I'm relieved to see it's an old fashioned farb bashing instead. :)

Well you answered the drill aspect pretty quickly, John. What else was left? :D

[john duffer]

Re: a special way of firing, or reenactorism ?

Somebody could at least argue with me! ;)

[Silas]

Re: a special way of firing, or reenactorism ?

Fine. You almost make it seem okay because Macdougall discusses something like it for a battalion level.

Someone had to stand up and by your strawman, Duffer.

I'd have trouble calling it a reenactorism only because it's not a well entrenched practice not found in any applicable CW drill manual. Maybe if it was also illustrated in the 10th PA's animated drill page at http://www.10thpa.com/DrillCo1.htm or the 10th Batt'n ANV's similarly dismal drill page http://www.10thbattalion.org/school.php - it might become a reenactorism. Until then, is it always possible that someone will see the video here, think it's kewl, then promote it as something that's a/c approved.

[Jeremy Bevard]

Re: a special way of firing, or reenactorism ?

Neil,
I have seen the three things I pointed out done incorrectly at a cph event. I have seen those three points done correctly at a mainstream event (finer point: the manual does state to pronounce the number "in a loud and distinct voice, in the same tone, without hurry". It is my opinion that distinct and loud so the man next to you and the Orderly can hear is different then yelling so the whole word can hear but that might be another topic). Along with the reverse of both of these. My point is it is not about stream vs not stream. My point is I see many miss the finer points on SoS and in some cases (which it is on the charge cartridge and ready) it becomes a safty issue. Since I knew dozens if not hundreds of users on here would be watching the video and reading the posts I felt a need to point these out. With the hopes that it would cause at least a few to look it up, then learn something new and then just maybe pass it on to their group leader or comrade.

John,
Wish I could argue with you but I don't know enough on this topic and can't. The order you listed makes more sense to me as it is a simpler order of the firings. Less chance of the officer or the men getting confused on who is next.

[john duffer]

Re: a special way of firing, or reenactorism ?

Well they actually butchered Right-Face worse than firing and loading, I shudder to think of what happened when they went on to by file into line. :)

Silas, you should be a politician. I have no idea if you just agreed or disagreed with me so I can't rebutt. :)

Thanks all, I wish there were more drill questions, quizs, discussions, etc. Many officers know basic drill movements, some better - some worse, but not as many can think on their feet to meet sudden or unique situations. I think many troops don't enjoy drilling because it's the same few things every time (I'm sure the original gentlemen may have also felt that way). Back when I was with an established unit that drilled at least monthly the most fun was learning something new or the pride of making it through something tricky.

[unionforever69th]

Re: a special way of firing, or reenactorism ?

Neil,
I have seen the three things I pointed out done incorrectly at a cph event. I have seen those three points done correctly at a mainstream event (finer point: the manual does state to pronounce the number "in a loud and distinct voice, in the same tone, without hurry". It is my opinion that distinct and loud so the man next to you and the Orderly can hear is different then yelling so the whole word can hear but that might be another topic). Along with the reverse of both of these. My point is it is not about stream vs not stream. My point is I see many miss the finer points on SoS and in some cases (which it is on the charge cartridge and ready) it becomes a safty issue. Since I knew dozens if not hundreds of users on here would be watching the video and reading the posts I felt a need to point these out. With the hopes that it would cause at least a few to look it up, then learn something new and then just maybe pass it on to their group leader or comrade.

I know what you're saying, I just wanted to make a "seen too many movies" joke. ;)

On the serious side, you're right, even little things done improperly can become a safety issue. I've seen that in three different time periods and one of them didn't involve linear warfare. The bottom line when it comes to that is everyone is a safety officer and if you see something that could get someone hurt, you have to bring attention to it. Like you said, it puts it in others minds. Now someone needs to bring it up to the offenders in a polite and cordial way before they get hurt or hurt a comrade.

[Rankin]

Re: a special way of firing, or reenactorism ?

Why are we discussing the less than stellar performance of a less than authentic group? These videos are all over youtube.
Jim Crawford

[Michael Comer]

Re: a special way of firing, or reenactorism ?

John and Mark,

I do know that the major European armies played around with a firing by platoon system. I assume it would have been similar to what the CW manuals say about firing by company within a regimental line only with smaller units. The idea was to have that rolling fire to the front and avoid the usual type of firing that always seemed to degenerate to inidividual firing which those armies greatly frowned upon. My understanding is that it didn't work that well and was abandoned by most of those armies.

Since US manuals tended to copy those European ones, have either of you ever come across the US Army experimenting with something like this?

[john duffer]

Re: a special way of firing, or reenactorism ?

Platoon firing was mainly an English thing because of their relatively higher standard of training (smaller professional army versus masses of conscripts) and was a famous staple in the Napoleonic Wars as well as India, et al. It's distant grandchild was the "mad minute". Partially because of the conscript the French still leaned towards heavy columns and shock over fire.

I haven't seen anything in US manuals calling for this exact method but the tools are there, it's just FIRE BY WING & FIRE BY RANK combined/alternated. The manuals are textbooks that show how but not why, that was acquired by outside reading and experience. The modern analogy would be a programing language where the manual gives you a bunch of IF blank - THEN blank & WHILE blank>1 - DO blank commands and it's up to the programmer to mix and match to create software.

[Silas]

Re: a special way of firing, or reenactorism ?

I haven't seen it at this level, either. The video and videos like it are the spawn of small scale, reenacting tactics. It's an attempt to make companies into battalions. Considering many folks don't seem to graduate beyond the lessons of the school of the company and into the school of the battalion, it's not too surprising to see something like this.

There's no need to break a company into four parts for firing when multiple companies are operated as a battalion. Even as a battalion of two companies - which is contemplated - you're not going to see the commander of a demi-battalion making all the firing commands. Authority is going to go down to company commanders to fire front and rear ranks AS THEY CHOOSE INDIVIDUALLY and not by command of the major or senior captain leading the demi-battalion. Only in fire by companies have I noticed cooperation between adjoining company commanders. (After the odd companies fire by company and after the even companies fire by company, pairs of companies - properly identified as divisions per the manual - work together firing alternately by company in the same manner that fire partners fire while skirmishing.)