State Buckles

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: State Buckles

Hallo!

Do you mean....

The pre War and War time oval belt PLATE with the five pointed star?

or

The "spoon and weath," police, militia, Florida/Mississippi/Texas officer swordbelt plate/buckles?

Aong the 1861/1862 images of Texas Brigade members, there are a number of officers such as Captain Edward Currie of Co. "I" 1st Texas, and 1st LT, J.R. Loughridge of Co. "I," 4th Texas, and Captain D. C. Farmer, of Co. "A," 5th Texas wearing spoon-and wreaths officers' swordbelt buckles/plates.
There are other Texas Brigade officer portraits showing spoon-and-wreaths, but they are too fuzzy to determine the type of buckle/plate- so they "might" could be "Texas stars" or something else. They are either possibly Republic of Texas items, OR more likely 1850's Texas miitia items. In the 1850's, ton sof thesde were made and sold, and they are common in excavations and photographs.
And, they are complicated becasue of use by Florida and Mississipp as well, AND by post War police departments up to about 1885-1890 or so. Pennsylvania and especially Philadelhia police departments loved them through the 1890's. So, star s-and-w's are so common that they are REALLY hard to ID once out of historical/archeoogical provenance.
e There a few different styles of Texas oval belt plates, and rectangular with a star, NUG believed to be 1850's miliita recycled for 1861. Val Giles of Co. "B," 4th Texas is wearing one.
Sergeant Hugh Boozer of Co. "G," 4th Texas and Sergeant B. Pugh Fuller of Co. "A," 5th Texas are wearing rectangular ones.

Since NOT all Texas Brigade lads in their 1861/1862 photographs have them, one has to assume that some of the men in some of the copanies had them as issue or private purchase. More lads, even in 1861/1862 images,are already wearing one or two tongued frame buckles.

Sydney Kerksis in his "Plates and Buckles of the American Military 1795-1874" uses a 1-10 point rarity or scarcity scale system. NUG, he has these rated at 8's or 9's on the scale where 10 is ultra rare and 1 is common.

Curt

[maillemaker]

Re: State Buckles

What does "NUG" mean?

Steve

[LWhite64]

Re: State Buckles

Well I wouldnt just say Early War, but Early Units. The first regiments raised by the states early in the war. I can tell you that from my research on the 10th South Carolina that quite a few State plates and buttons have come out of their camps from 63 and 64, and they were the tenth of the first ten regiments raised by SC in early 1861. Ive been recently surprised to learn of the number of GA state seal plates that have been uncovered in the Gettysburg area from some relic collectors. Anyway, food for thought depending on the unit being portrayed.

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: State Buckles

Hallo!

"What does "NUG" mean?"

It is the Board-Speak acronym for "Normally, Usually, Generally."

(It is part of the historical and archeological warning against the risk of using Universals or Absolutes such as "always" or "never," etc..)

Curt

[FloridaConscript]

Re: State Buckles

Well I wouldnt just say Early War, but Early Units. The first regiments raised by the states early in the war. I can tell you that from my research on the 10th South Carolina that quite a few State plates and buttons have come out of their camps from 63 and 64, and they were the tenth of the first ten regiments raised by SC in early 1861. Ive been recently surprised to learn of the number of GA state seal plates that have been uncovered in the Gettysburg area from some relic collectors. Anyway, food for thought depending on the unit being portrayed.

mini tangent here Lee

1.) The Kelly frock in the Relic Room (which was worn at Appomattox) has SC buttons
2.) the Coleman type III in Echoes also has SC buttons.

I am generally subscribe to the NUG theory as well, but not all Johnny coats had I buttons on them.

[marlin teat]

Re: State Buckles

Well I wouldnt just say Early War, but Early Units. The first regiments raised by the states early in the war. I can tell you that from my research on the 10th South Carolina that quite a few State plates and buttons have come out of their camps from 63 and 64, and they were the tenth of the first ten regiments raised by SC in early 1861. Ive been recently surprised to learn of the number of GA state seal plates that have been uncovered in the Gettysburg area from some relic collectors. Anyway, food for thought depending on the unit being portrayed.

Hi Lee,
The Noble Brothers Foundry in Rome, Ga. turned out a number of pewter Ga. plates in late 62 before switching to the rectangular C.S. plate. A few (two that I know of) have been found in the Dallas - New Hope area and I heard of one being dug around Manassas Gap in the vicinity of where Wright's Ga. brigade fought a rear guard action after Gettysburg.

The Dallas-New Hope plates are a bit of a mystery as they were found in the vicinity of Ector's Brigade which had passed through Rome just a few weeks before. According to the Rome Courier the Texas troops burned several warehouses in Rome before withdrawing. Perhaps they helped themselves to some Ga. plates for some reason.

[Phil McBride]

Re: State Buckles

Regarding the oval Texas star buckles, the recently published book Texas Civil War Artifacts, on pages 64-65, displays one that looks just like the standard sutler item. The text says it came from the collection of the Riley Brothers, who were from Maine, and GAR members. They collected artifacts, searching for them during GAR encampments near battlefields. The star buckle has the notation it came with a paper tag attached to it saying: "A Texas buckle from one of the Texas regiments (4th or 5th) that fought against Joshua Chamberlain and the 20th Maine at Little Round Top." Maybe that's not the best documentation ever, but it's something and reflects what is possibly a bonafide oval star buckle found far from Texas. There are a lot of variations of star buckles in the book. It's worth a look.

Phil McBride
The Alamo Rifles

[BShajari]

Re: State Buckles

Thanks, Phil...I'm going to look into this book. Did the buckle have "TEXAS" engraved around the star?

Brian

[J.H. Moore]

Re: State Buckles

I just ordered a copy myself. It should be here very soon.

[BShajari]

Re: State Buckles

Just got the book today...definitely worth it. I'm also going to look into saving up for the books mentioned on page 1. Thanks for the information everyone!

[musketbal]

Re: State Buckles

Maryland Confederate Units were issued pre-war state seal buckle. Most of the Companies wore them as well as Maryland state seal buttons. The Marylanders were well supplied uniform wise, durring the War from private funding. Another addition made to the uniforms was the attachment of a small bottony cross placed on the left breast. They considered themself's the "true Marylanders" The Federal Marylanders were called the "loyal" Marylanders.

Brent Conner

[FloridaConscript]

Re: State Buckles

Hi Lee,
The Noble Brothers Foundry in Rome, Ga. turned out a number of pewter Ga. plates in late 62 before switching to the rectangular C.S. plate. A few (two that I know of) have been found in the Dallas - New Hope area and I heard of one being dug around Manassas Gap in the vicinity of where Wright's Ga. brigade fought a rear guard action after Gettysburg.

The Dallas-New Hope plates are a bit of a mystery as they were found in the vicinity of Ector's Brigade which had passed through Rome just a few weeks before. According to the Rome Courier the Texas troops burned several warehouses in Rome before withdrawing. Perhaps they helped themselves to some Ga. plates for some reason.

I saw 2 pewter plates yesterday at the Columbia Civil War show. One was non dug. The other was dug around Lookout mntn. The fella was a collector out of Athens Ga and had quite a collection.

[Jimmayo]

Re: State Buckles

mini tangent here Lee

1.) The Kelly frock in the Relic Room (which was worn at Appomattox) has SC buttons
2.) the Coleman type III in Echoes also has SC buttons.

I am generally subscribe to the NUG theory as well, but not all Johnny coats had I buttons on them.

You are quite right. South Carolina troops were well adorned with state buttons. IMO the SC button is the most commonly found Confederate state button in the Virginia theater. However some years back, having pinpointed one of McGowans camps in Petersburg I arrived ready to dig SC buttons. Ended up digging many eagle buttons and only a few SCs.

[Mississippian]

Re: State Buckles

Jim,

So you find more South Carolina Buttons in Virginia than Virginia State Buttons? I find that interesting. Perhaps you could give us a list, from most common to least common C.S. State buttons you have found?

To get back on topic, while it may not be a "state" buckle, you will find that Mississippi troops were equipped with mostly "forked tongue" buckles early in the war, most likely from Magee and George of New Orleans. Very very common in photos of Mississippians from regiments that served in both east and west.

Will MacDonald

[Jimmayo]

Re: State Buckles

Perhaps you could give us a list, from most common to least common C.S. State buttons you have found?

Will MacDonald

State buttons I found in the CS lines from Squirrel Level road to around Hatchers Run were mostly South Carolina, followed by NC sunburst, NC State and an occasional Mississippi, Georgia or Virginia button. The most common button I found along those lines was the Eagle, followed by Block I in both ANV and AOT configuration which includes the cast I and Tenn. puff I buttons. Most block buttons had tin backs which is fancy talk for rusty back or no back. Many of those SC buttons came from McGowans men.