State Buckles

[Rockbridge]

OK, I have tried searching around the forum but to no avail, so here is my question:

How prominent would all those "state" bucksl (ie. SNY, NC, SC, etc etc) have been during the war? Now I am sure that it going to boil down to time frame, unit, theater etc, but on average, what would thier ratio be in a typical unit? Would they be something that could have been bought at a sutler or perhaps before the unit left the state? The same question about all the breast plates as well. I have seen originals, so I know they exist, but how common were they? Thank....

Jeff Dunwoody

[rebelfirefighter07]

Re: State Buckles

I've done no big study but here's what I've seen. I have the book Georgia's Confederate Sons. The entire book is just pictures of Georgia Troops and a bunch of them. In the book I have only seen a hand full of Georgia state seal buckles. There are some there but not in large numbers. You have a mix of all kinds but the absolute most common buckle in there from what I can tell is the Georgia Frame Buckle which is about as simple and plain a buckle as you can find. Its not really the type buckle you are asking about.
I believe it would boil down to the unit, time and all that as with anything else. All of this is just one mans opinion from one source. I hope it helps though.

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: State Buckles

Hallo!

"How prominent would all those "state" bucksl (ie. SNY, NC, SC, etc etc) have been during the war? Now I am sure that it going to boil down to time frame, unit, theater etc, but on average, what would thier ratio be in a typical unit?"

Tis complicated.... :)

In brief and to over generalize:

Not that "prominant" unless one was in one of the few units that ahd them or got them early in the War. (So they appear more "numerous" in images because many images were often taken early in the War when lads enlisted.)

For Federals, at both the federal and the state level at the start of the War there was an effort to outfit lads with federal belt buckles and accoutrement plates. For Confederates, being new, they had to rely on what state and militia buckles or plates that were on hand.

However, a few Northern states such as Ohio, New York, and Maine made the decision to equip (some of) their lads with state plates. Obviously that did not last long with the exception of NY, and the plates ran out and had to replaced by federal issue. And, while NY still did theirs (after a new initial batfch of 33,000 in 1861) , not ALL NY units got the SNY (especially after 1864 when the FeEs asked NY not to equipment new troops and the NY militia could choose between Fed or State). Worse and more limited for Ohio with the OVM or Maine with the VMM. Few had them.

By and large, within the first year or two of the War the majority of the limited state plates were lost, disappeared, or buried wth their owners. They are REALLY rare in 1864 or 1865 battlefields and camps.

On the other side, you have (some) Confederates that went off to war with their miitia kit. CSA states that had state and militia plates used them- and during the "commutation" period numbers of lads found their own whether a father's 1830's militia plate or his grandfathers War of 1812 plate. As materiel got short, plates tended to vanish with their wearers, and move toward frame and roller buckles tha tused less metal.
The CS government- faced with a war that was not over by summer, and faced with shortages, decided to focus on waist belt plates rather than accoutrement plates. Because Confederate purchasing/procurement agents were more-or-less indpendent agents, they acquired stuff outside of regulations as well as outside of standards such as size, designs, lettering, format, etc.,

And last, more of an officer's thing. While there are central government, state, and militia items- there are also private purchase items that match regulation or do not.

And last but not least, is the caveat that what plates or belts are present is indeed a reflection of the unit, time, and place. Meaning, an Ohio unit in 1861 that was actually issued OVM plates had them until attrition, loss, and replacement made them rare except for maybe,possibly the lad with a sentimental attachment to his plate and managed to keep it thrugh loss or resupply, or the eye of a colonel or captain who did not like the lack of uniformitity in his command.

Beyond that, IMHO, one gets into "fictions" and "stretches" that can be seen as so-called "farbery." Such as I served in the say 459th Ohio Infantry and while I never got the OVM plates and Ohio Seal shoulder belt plate but saw some guys in the 1st OH who had them and while they were not looking snuck into their camp and stole a set for me- or won a set playing cards- or took them from a dead guy- or....

Again, being too brief and over generalized...

Curt

[Rockbridge]

Re: State Buckles

Thanks for the reply fellas. Good info. So basically it comes down to what I thought. EARLY war (1861-1862 time frame) You would be more likely to find state buckles and plates, but as time went by, they would become less and less frequent in the hands of the common soldier. NY might be an exception to a point, but the majority would have had and used government issued brass. I have never been one for the ''tall tales'' of how I ''got my buckle by...." or ''took this here (___fill in the blank___) off a dead yank!" Thanks again,

[roundshot]

Re: State Buckles

Although to address just such a "stretch" as Curt cites above, I've seen a photo where a member of the 2nd Connecticut HA in 1865 is shown wearing an "OVM" belt plate. I surmise he got it from one of the Ohio 100 days men that served alongside the 2nd in Sheridan's Shenandoah campaign of 1864, but who the heck really knows? The original photo, by the way, mistakenly identifies the fellow's unit as the 2nd NYHA. I'll try to locate.

[roundshot]

Re: State Buckles

Here he is. Do we call him a Nutmeg Buckeye? here's link to the original master photo: http://www.loc.gov/pictures/collecti...2003000941/PP/

[MassVOL]

Re: State Buckles

Soldiers will wear what they like, are attached to for luck or sentiment, and what they can dig up in accordance with what they can get away with.

[KPavia]

Re: State Buckles

As far as SNY buckles go, in looking at photos on the LoC, SNY's seem to still be pretty common by the fall of 1863 at least with the photos I've seen. I'm thinking specifically of photos of the 93rd NY in August 1863.

[ironbrigade6]

Re: State Buckles

From what ive seen SNY plates seemed to be pretty common for a long time during the war. The other thing to think about is how many privates you see in pictures wearing NCO belts, there seems to be heavy photographic evidence of this. As kenny said in the photograph of the 93rd NY you see men wearing SNY, US, and NCO belts. I would guess it does boil back down to the individual unit, because as we know many units as the war progressed unit regulations became more strict. Just my 2 cents

Jonathan Bachmann
104th Pennsylvania Volunteers
Company C
McClellan Rangers

[BShajari]

Re: State Buckles

I know that this thread is old, but I need some guidance and can't really find any good documentation.

Does anyone know of any documentation of Texas units using the round buckle with the Star on it? I've seen the dug rectangular models, but have never seen any documented use of the oval buckles.

Brian

[J.H. Moore]

Re: State Buckles

I know that this thread is old, but I need some guidance and can't really find any good documentation.

Does anyone know of any documentation of Texas units using the round buckle with the Star on it? I've seen the dug rectangular models, but have never seen any documented use of the oval buckles.

Brian

I've been looking for answers on this topic as well. So far, the only resource I have run across that mentions it is The Confederate Army 1861-65 (3) Louisiana and Texas by Ron Field. It is part of the Men-at-Arms series from Osprey Publishing. It mentions... "Casimir Rouyer of 135 Chartres Street (New Orleans) advertising for sale in January of 1861 “Military Emblems for the Southern States, including…belt plates, buckles, and Military Buttons.” In March of 1861, Charles Bellenot on the corner of Bienville Street and Exchange Alley was advertising “Pelicans, Stars, Letters and Numbers for Caps and Knapsacks, Buckles for Belts.” (Field, pp.17-18). This would indicate that these items could have been a private purchase, unless they possibly came from militia stock.

Also, from resources...."Co. H, "The Texas Guards", One of two Anderson County units in the famous Hood’s Texas Brigade,
Company H was organized locally and mustered into Confederate service for
the duration of the war at New Orleans, Louisiana on June 24, 1861 by Lt.
John G. Deveroux, CSA."

[Stonewall_Greyfox]

Re: State Buckles

Well this may be a backwords approach to answering your question on TX buckles...but you really do need to check out the following 2 books:

Lon Keim's Confederate General Service and Accoutrement Plates
and

Steve Mullinax's Confederate Belt Buckles and Plates

THESE ARE THE GO-TO ON BUCKLES...and are a testament to what saw use in the field, and where the examples were 'dug'. Using these, one could make reasonable determinations as to what battlefields the buckles came from...and subsequently document which units were present at those battles...hence able to document their conclusions.

Though the pricetags on these are steep...they are frequently available on interlibrary loans.

Paul B.

[David Fox]

Re: State Buckles

As to North Carolina plates, the oval "NC" is extremely rare. I've seen two in a lifetime of looking: one belonged to Colonel (later governor) Zeb Vance and is on a white dragoon belt, the other was a skin from a fire pit. In Mast's great, thick book of photos of North Carolina volunteers, there is one N.C. oval on a uniformed figure. The 6th NCST oval plates in their variations are perhaps the most-produced of all NC enlisted plates and would have been widely-worn when given out to that regiment, then gradually disappeared. None of the 6th's, of course, were pre-war militia, as is the case with many other State plates. As to sword belt plates, a friend in Fayetteville had what I believe to have been the only known surviving rectangular "NC" & wreath, which saw rather wide reproduction in the 1970s. The various spoon & wreath "NC" sword plates are perhaps commonest of all: which means one might see one at the huge December Franklin/Nashville relic show.

South Carolina, practicing in front of a mirror for secession for decades before 1860, certainly had more plates of almost infinite variety, rectangular, oval, and spoon & wreath, of any of the states. I'd not be surprised if they didn't have absolutely more plates, too. I've seen numerouse photos of SC EMs and officers in such. Lousiana wasn't bashful with pelican plates, either. Arkansas ovals are extraordininarily rare. As the feller wrote above, attrition and the length of the war made state-specific belt plates rapidly less common on both sides. Camp site and battlefield recoveries are the best way to guage ongoing use.

[Dreamer42]

Re: State Buckles

Brian,
I hope this sheds a little light...Last fall we (9th Texas) did a living history at Vicksburg. The currator shared that none of the oval star plates have been found in any of the digs that have been done. This doesn't mean the Texas boys didn't have them, just that none have been found. Based upon that information, we (as a unit) decided not to have any Texas plates and to stick with forked or Georgia frames, or rollers.
I haven't done any research, but I'm wondering if they weren't a militia thing. None-the-less, until someone gets more info, I wear my Texas star oval on my leather/canvas belt when we portray a Texas unit in the AOT. Otherwise I wear my Georgia frame when portraying other units.
One more thing. I believe I was the most authentic reb out there. I contracted a bit of food poisoning the previous night and was quite ill the next day and could not pull any guard or other duties, having puked like crazy - just trying to add my own little personal bit of realism to the whole situation.

- Jay Reid
Dreamer42
9th Texas

[BShajari]

Re: State Buckles

Gentlemen,
I appreciate yall shedding some more light on the matter and listing references...this is exactly what I was looking for. Thanks again!

Brian