Blue Confederate Trousers

[tsgalloway]

Re: Blue confederate trousers

Very good. Thank you, Mr. Bemis and Mr. White.

[sgt1863]

Re: Blue confederate trousers

Time & place is everything when it comes to forming a Confederate impression. As others have noted there are a good number of times when massive amounts of Federal equipment was captured, specially with the ANV. Savages Station, Manassas Junction & Harpers Ferry are a few that come to mind right off the bat. Some of the carnage at Antietam can be accounted for because many of Jackson's troops were in fact wearing Federal uniforms. Even at the Battle of the Wilderness, many of Longstreets troops where wearing Federal uniforms dyed black. The simplest answer to the blue trousers question is what unit you are portraying and what time period are you representing that unit to be in. No matter how much research, documentation etc, you have there will always be the snide comment or glare. After 15 years I still take crap from someone for my loom woven carpet blanket roll.

Michael Tommarello

[FloridaConscript]

Re: Blue confederate trousers

Time & place is everything when it comes to forming a Confederate impression. As others have noted there are a good number of times when massive amounts of Federal equipment was captured, specially with the ANV. Savages Station, Manassas Junction & Harpers Ferry are a few that come to mind right off the bat. Some of the carnage at Antietam can be accounted for because many of Jackson's troops were in fact wearing Federal uniforms. Even at the Battle of the Wilderness, many of Longstreets troops where wearing Federal uniforms dyed black. The simplest answer to the blue trousers question is what unit you are portraying and what time period are you representing that unit to be in. No matter how much research, documentation etc, you have there will always be the snide comment or glare. After 15 years I still take crap from someone for my loom woven carpet blanket roll.

Michael Tommarello

mind sharing more about Longstreets troops at the wilderness in black uniforms? I'm not familiar with the account.

[McLane's Avenger]

Re: Blue confederate trousers

From John Priest's "Antietam: A Soldier's Battle":

"In the distance, the Confederate's (Gregg's Brigade) appeared to many like a Federal column. A large portion of them wore undyed Federal uniforms which they stole from the captured garrison at Harper's Ferry. They also flew captured National colors."

So Gregg's Brigade was wearing Federal uniforms and they were flying a US flag. Then, an officer in a nearby Federal regiment happened to be strutting around with a captured CS flag. To top it off, the South Carolinians marched into the 40 Acre Cornfield and delivered a volley into a green Union regiment at 10 feet.

[lwtaggart]

Re: Blue confederate trousers

A couple of good examples of CS trousers with a shade of blue are at the MOC. The William Dorsey Pender trouser labled as an enlisted mans trouser is clearly of sky blue kersey. Also the much overlooked J.T. Moore cotton jean trouser is clearly a shade of blue. Both examples can be seen in the reference "Echoes of Glory."

George Taggart

[PaulJ]

Re: Blue confederate trousers

Hi, I was looking at this thread:-

http://www.authentic-campaigner.com/...-and-equipment.

relating to Jim Schruefer's new website, and noticed on Jim's website his analysis on the May 1864 "Punch Bowl" photograph of CS prisoners which seemed relevant to post here:-

http://www.blueandgraymarching.com/a...-the-punc.html - scroll down to "Conclusions"

"There is a tendency in this image for the pants to appear lighter than the jacket in most cases. There is one possible explanation for this. In the months previous to the taking of this photo, Richmond had issued large numbers of light or royal blue pants to the army, typically made from imported kersey. If a large number of pants in the photo are light enough shades of blue, it could explain this difference, since there is no evidence that lighter shades of gray tended to be used for pants and darker for jackets."

On another note, it was mentioned earlier in the thread that Fred Adolphus and Chris Sullivan ( http://www.stonybrookcompany.com/ ) are sources for Royal Blue RD trousers - does anyone know if there are further sources out there? I think I read somewhere that Chas Child's #K2CS cloth is suitable which would mean that he could supply a pair. I'm not in immediate need of a pair, but would be interested in any further information.

[BShajari]

Re: Blue confederate trousers

Curious about the "dyed black uniforms" as well, sir.

Brian

[CSchneider]

Re: Blue confederate trousers

On another note, it was mentioned earlier in the thread that Fred Adolphus and Chris Sullivan ( http://www.stonybrookcompany.com/ ) are sources for Royal Blue RD trousers - does anyone know if there are further sources out there? I think I read somewhere that Chas Child's #K2CS cloth is suitable which would mean that he could supply a pair. I'm not in immediate need of a pair, but would be interested in any further information.

Charlie's #K2CS is indeed dyed to match an unfaded/unsoiled portion of a surviving pair of royal blue kersey C.S. trousers in the MOC collection. His most recent run is a near perfect match to the color, weave, and overall look of the royal blue cloth commonly used for enlisted trousers and the only material I'd use in reproducing a pair.

-Craig Schneider

[Jim S]

Re: Blue confederate trousers

I wanted to chime in on this thread since I've been watching it with interest. I also wanted to point out that the quote from my site that Paul used above is somewhat speculative on my part. They were issued quite a lot of blue pants, but whether or not that is really the reason for the pants in the photo being lighter on average is something we can't know. But it does seem feasible to me.

I think we tend to disregard the fact that the Confederacy had uniform regulations. Of course the depots weren't held to it and never lived up to it, but we shouldn't assume the people running the operations didn't give them a thought. From what I've read, there seems to be reason to believe that Richmond, at least, tried to have blue trousers made whenever practical. After all, some of the caps made there seem to have observed the regulation color scheme, so it seems the regs weren't totally ignored. I mention on my site, in the "Letter From the Richmond Depot" article, the October '62 contract in which the QM Dept. requested the agents purchase overseas 300,000 yards of cadet gray for jackets (which would be the "blue-gray kersey" we all know) and 275,000 yards of blue for pants. That's a lot of pants. And besides the imports, we know at least Crenshaw Mill was making blue cloth domestically.

In the NY Times online archives, there is an interesting little bit of information. Capt. F. G. Young of New York was captured on Sept. 21, 1862, quickly exchanged after a few days captivity in Richmond, and arrived in New York on Oct. 9, where he was interviewed for intelligence on the Confederates. The NY Times learned from him that: "The rebel troops are rapidly receiving their new uniforms, consisting of dark gray woolen jackets and light blue pants, etc."



For him to get the impression that this was some new army-wide uniform he presumably saw quite a few men dressed in new uniforms of this description. This was about the time many units were receiving their first significant government issues. Commutation was officially ended the day after the article was published. It could be that right from the beginning of the Richmond Depot's attempt to take over responsibility of supplying the whole army, they might have been making an effort to issue blue pants as a standard. Now I wouldn't go so far as to say that most Rebs at Gettysburg were wearing blue pants or anything that sweeping, but all things considered they were probably far more common than many would think. Definitely an area for further study.

[Jim S]

Re: Blue confederate trousers

That blank space in my post above was supposed to contain a link to the NY Times article in question but it didn't show up. Here it is:

http://www.nytimes.com/1862/10/10/news/late-richmond-statements-capt-fg-young-lately-rebel-capital.html?scp=2&sq=blue+pants&st=p

[Jalaco]

Re: Blue confederate trousers

Mr. Schruefer, could you give me the link to your website? I'd be interestead in reading that letter from the Richmond depot you mentioned. Also, do you know of any other books, websites, publications, etc. with more information on the Richmond depot that could possibly contain more clues as to the blue trousers? That's a pretty interesting idea; confederate regulations calling for blue trousers! I never knew about that one order you mentioned in your first post.
It would seem that if that's true (at least at one point of time) the confederates did try and issue light blue trousers as a standard. Have you any information on the pattern?

[DBURT]

Re: Blue confederate trousers

Take a look at an article I wrote on the AC a couple of years ago about English imported trousers.

http://www.authentic-campaigner.com/forum/showthread.php?t=16931

Dave Burt, England

[highpvt]

Re: Blue confederate trousers

Dave,
I've read your article several times. Some really good info in there about Reb blue pants. Good stuff and thanks for the research!

[Jim S]

Re: Blue confederate trousers

Jory, Paul included a link to my website in his post, and there's a thread about the site on this forum. The home page is www.blueandgraymarching.com. There's not much in print on the subject. You might check out Tom Arliskas's book Cadet Gray and Butternut Brown, and you should definitely check out Dave Burt's article on the subject which will summarize a lot of what is known.

[Jalaco]

Re: Blue confederate trousers

Thank you Mr. Schruefer! I'll be sure to check the site out, and look into that book! And I've downloaded your article and shall read it as well Mr. Burt.