Correct North Carolina Infantryman Arms

[4VADRUMMER]

Re: Correct North Carolina Infantryman Arms

I've got a question regarding the distribution of various caliber weapons such as in your example of the 22nd North Carolina. Is there any evidence to substantiate that the weapons of various calibers were separated by Company or Battalion. I'm guessing that there could potentially have been major issues during an engagement, as men were running out of ammo and the resupply was brought to the front, the distribution of correct ammo. Just saying it would have been a total cluster with guys trying to get resupplied their correct ammo if there was not some sort of an order. Then again, nothing ever seems to go as planned in combat either. Wouldn't it make sense to have all you .69's on one wing and all your .58's on the other? Especially when guys needed resupply. Anyone know anything about how they tackled this problem?

[lwtaggart]

Re: Correct North Carolina Infantryman Arms

The ordnance issue could be seen as problamatic at times. This was clearly stated by Major Josiah Gorgas, Cheif of CS Ordnance. His 1864 order to all makers of cartidge boxes to produce a .69 caliber box. A one size fits all aproach to the problem.

George Taggart

[4VADRUMMER]

Re: Correct North Carolina Infantryman Arms

So basically he wanted everyone issued a .69 box regardless of their issue weapon? Very interesting and it makes perfect sense!

[hireddutchcutthroat]

Re: Correct North Carolina Infantryman Arms

The ordnance issue could be seen as problamatic at times. This was clearly stated by Major Josiah Gorgas, Cheif of CS Ordnance. His 1864 order to all makers of cartidge boxes to produce a .69 caliber box. A one size fits all aproach to the problem.

George Taggart

Federals did the same with the elongated ball box.

[David Fox]

Re: Correct North Carolina Infantryman Arms

A couple thoughts and a couple recommendations. Stonewall Jackson was wounded by .69 calibre buck and ball at the hands of North Carolina troops in May, 1863 (within your mid-war time frame). Fayetteville was a Confederate, not a State, facility. I know of no reason to believe Tar Heel troops had any particular claim on its production. By mid-war, I believe (bad as is opinion without ready reference) two-banders were going to Rebel mounted infantry and cavalry. Finally, get your hands on Greg Mast's heavy tome, "State Troops and Volunteers / a Photographic Record of North Carolina's Civil War Soldiers / Volume I" (North Carolina Department of Cultural resources, Raleigh, 1995). Mast may be gestating a volume II. Also especially useful is Thomas, Dean, and Ash's "Ready Aim Fire: Small Arms Ammunition in the Battle of Gettysburg", which deliniates bullets recovered from particular combat unit locations. It's available from Amazon.

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Correct North Carolina Infantryman Arms

Hallo!

In the earlier years of the War, it was not unusual, both US and CS, for the old concept of the two "flank companies" (once a light infantry and a grenadier comapny out of the ten in a regiment now skirmish compamnies) to be rifle-armed while the remaining eight companies were musket armed. Obviously as rifle-muskets gain ascendancy in numbers, "anyone" could be a skirmisher).

Here are a few NC quckies...

Some of the first "Enfield" issuances to NC lads was the 33rd, their gettign them just before the March 14, 1862 New Berne fight. Later, the Palmettoe Sharpshooters were armed with Enfields (described as "long range guns" annoyed the Federal artillery during the Penninsula.

And the 45th NC at Kingston NC in March of 1863 it was remarked they had "Minie" rifles by the sound of the whistling bullets, which later turned up 15 Enfields from their abandoned camp.

It is interesting to look at the "in fighting" for Enfields, especially during the first of the blockade runners with the purchases made by CS agents in Europe like Huse. Such as with the first run in September 1861 on board the "Bermuda" running into Savannah. Or the second on the "Fingal" reloaded to the CS "Nashville" in Bermuda for Savannah.
One of the reasons for the "weird" CS markings on Enfields was to determine what belonged to who, and who had bought what, or had deals from the blockade runner owners for the crates. Especially with the CS system that often times pitted the central government against the individual states.

For example, the "BErmuda" shipment was mad eup of about 3500 Enfield and Austrian rifles. 1700 were owned by private likley CS state agents for their states. CSA Sec.of War Judah Benjamin had learned he had to "negotiate" with the private owners for the 1700, AND that Georgia Brig. General Lawton at SAvannah had claimed 3000 for Georgia troops.
Lawton gave in, a bit, and returned all but 1000. Teh next day, General Albert Johnston in KY asked for a smany as he could get, 30,000. President Davis explained that there were only 3500, and that 1800 went to the CSA (1700 purchased from the private owners), and that 1500 were going to Richmond for unnamed trops, and that the remaining 1000 would be shipped to Johnston at Nashville.

Or..., the "Colletis" to the "Fingal" to the "Nashville" shipment of 9620 Enfields. 7520 were owned by the CS War Department, 1100 by the state of Georgia, and 1000 by the state of Louisiana. Johnston still needed guns, and Benjamin had told him before the arrival of teh "Fingal" in Bermuda he was getting 10,000. But Johnston and Robert E. Lee had to divide hth government's portion so GEorgia's 1100 portion went to arming units in the East- largely teh 3rd GA. But Lee dispersed his 3760 (half of 7520) with 2500 going to three South CArolina regiments. Georgia Governor then divided is portion between the 30th and the 33rd GA.

A similar thign happeend with the third batch, on the "Gladiator..."

Anyways, my point is that "ownership" and "issuance" gets muddied and we should not necessarily always look to Enfields being off-loaded and always ending up belonging to, and getting issued to, the "local troops" based on what port the ship arrived in.

Curt

[Mississippian]

Re: Correct North Carolina Infantryman Arms

Curt,

It seems some of those arms meant for Georgia went to the 24th Mississippi Infantry.

http://ebooks.library.cornell.edu/cgi/t/text/pageviewer-idx?c=moawar&cc=moawar&idno=waro0006&q1=Colonel+Dowd&view=image&seq=358&size=100

And getting back to North Carolina units, in the CSR of Col. R.C. Hill of the 48th North Carolina is the initial ordnance issue for the regiment, which consisted of 220 Enfield Rifles and 325 "British Muskets, Complete" these British Muskets were issued with .69 caliber ammunition.

Will MacDonald

[18th us regulars]

Re: Correct North Carolina Infantryman Arms

Hey look at the 2 banded weapons in the return!!!

Rifle Musket cal 58,
Rifle Muskets cal 58
Rifles cal 58
Smooth Bore Muskets cal 69,
Smooth Bore Muskets, cal 69

[GrumpyDave]

Re: Correct North Carolina Infantryman Arms

Have you looked to see if there's any record of what was in the State Armory(s) when the war broke out? Might help, might not. IMHO, the P53 is your best bet followed by a cone in conversion or a '42. Just sayin'.

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Correct North Carolina Infantryman Arms

Hallo!

In the Ordnance Department survey of arms, report to the Sec. of War dated November 12, 1859:



Curt

[Archie R. Lib]

Re: Correct North Carolina Infantryman Arms

I'm liking the 1,685 "Made As Percussion Rifles Cal .54" Fayetteville rifles stored in NC. Also, over 4,800 conversions and 2,800 made as percussion .69s, which I would assume would be M1842s. But that is still only around 10,000 muskets of any configuration to arm upwards of 25-30 NCV regiments through mid-1861.....though they probably would have had access to some of the 18,000+ muskets stored at Harper's Ferry. But then again so would the Virginia boys.

This is good stuff for early war toting, as an 1816/22 conversion is what I carry for that period. But for a mid to late-war? I still lean towards the M1842 but more especially the Enfield, as Wilmington was a busy blockade running port that would have picked up a great deal of slack and I'm sure Governor Vance would ensure they got into Tarheel hands.

Curt - any suggestions on where to look for that kind of documentation?

Thx.
Rich

[David Fox]

Re: Correct North Carolina Infantryman Arms

Rich: be clear that those returns Herr Schmidt just posted don't include "Fayetteville rifles". They're rifles stored at the Fayetteville facitily, likely a mix of M.1817 (I've seen several marked "N.C.") and M.1841. Let me refer you again to the small book "Ready Aim Fire: Small Arms Ammunition in the Battle of Gettysburg", which is available through Amazon, for mid-war Tar Heel eastern army weaponry. It details bullets found in specific locations on the battlefield in relation to units occupying that area. Gettysburg is as "mid-war" as one can get.

[Archie R. Lib]

Re: Correct North Carolina Infantryman Arms

I see what you mean, David. Thanks. I will get on Amazon this weekend to see if I can find a copy of that book.

Keep your powder dry.
Rich

[roundshot]

Re: Correct North Carolina Infantryman Arms

Take a look at this: http://www.blueandgraymarching.com/scales-brigade.html

[DougCooper]

Re: Correct North Carolina Infantryman Arms

Am curious as to reason for this poll?