Soldiers wearing English accoutrements

[DBURT]

Re: Soldiers wearing English accoutrements

Here is a pic of an original CS used English cap pouch. I took the pics at the Museum of the Confederacy in 2008.

Dave Burt

[CS Ensign]

Re: Soldiers wearing English accoutrements

Dave,
I'm sure you've seen this one, from Herb Peck's collection and published in "Firepower from Abroad" and other places, but just in case ...

Have you seen any images of socket bayonets carried in frogs like this one?

Best,
Greg

[GenuineInformation]

Re: Soldiers wearing English accoutrements

For one thing--and I know you can't assume photos are a statistically random sampling--the photos show frequent CS usage of P56/58/60 style Enfield rifles.

[cobooya]

Re: Soldiers wearing English accoutrements

This may not help at all........ but I do remember reading an article a few years back that the CS Marines were issued all British gear and Enfields. And that several images had been I.D.ed as CS Marines because of the British leathers and the grey frock coats or grey shell jackets, and the use of dark blue forage caps. I have no images to show or further proof, just the memory of that article. Sorry,

Steve Tyler

[Jimmayo]

Re: Soldiers wearing English accoutrements

Here is a throat from a P53 scabbard which has been modified to accept a Springfield socket bayonet. It was found in a Petersburg CS trench. Parts of Enfield P53 scabbards used to be a common find in CS positions in Petersburg.

The other picture is a BSAT P53 bayonet in original English scabbard with frog. Came from New Hampshire.

[DBURT]

Re: Soldiers wearing English accoutrements

Greg, thanks for that photo. See how the soldier is wearing his cap pouch the wrong way around; but he is wearing it on the pouch belt as was regulation in the British army. The scabbard with the buckle strap was supposed to be issued with the sabre bayonet for use on the P56,60 Enfields only as the picture by Jim shows. The P53 bayonet scabbard did not have this feature.

I'm surprised that in every photo bar one the soldiers are armed with the P60, or P56 'short' rifle, only one has a P53.
Attached is a picture of a ball bag take n at the Atlanta History Center by myself a couple of years ago. The other one was taken at the SCCRR & Museum in Columbia S.C.. This one is stamped ' S Isaac Campbell & Co, 71 Jermyn Street London'. It belonged to a soldier named Gunter from the 4th SC inf. This one is slightly different from the regulation one in Atlanta but SIC&Co made stuff for the volunteers only, being banned from the British Army.
What has always perplexed me is how the ordinary soldier would have used it. Would he have used it as a cap pouch? Any ideas on this?

Dave Burt

[Mississippian]

Re: Soldiers wearing English accoutrements

Since most of this thread is dealing with Arms and equipment coming in late '61 and early '62, I seem to remember that there was order from Richmond that the newly arrived Enfields and other high quality weapons and equipment were not to be given out to units enlisted for less than 3 years service. Since most of the "old" regiments were enlisted for only 1 year most of the good English gear was given to newly raised units such as the 39th GA or 61st GA, much to the ire of more veteran units.

Will MacDonald

[DBURT]

Re: Soldiers wearing English accoutrements

Will, that is great information. Do you know the source for this?

Dave Burt

[roundshot]

Re: Soldiers wearing English accoutrements

It's in OR, Series I, Vol. 6 on pages 318-323, as I mentioned in an earlier post. Also page 340 where Benjamin writes R. E. Lee (who commanded the coastal district on 12/8/61: "I am firm in my purpose not to give a musket to a man enlisted for less than the war (or three yers, which is the same thing)and therefore beg that you will inform Governor Pickens and Brown that if they have no "war" troops ready to receive the arms you will arm at once the other regiments mentioned in your letter . . . " See also Lee's reply to Benjamin of 12/16/61 on p. 346-347. There is a good deal of info on this subject in Vol. 6 and it would be worth checking out.

[Mississippian]

Re: Soldiers wearing English accoutrements

Dave,

I'll have to find the specific order but these letters from Gen. Lee to the Governor of South Carolina and other officers mentions the policy in a passing way:

http://www.carolina-rifles.org/records-beninning.html

You'll see they were really pushing for units to be enlisted for the war.

Will MacDonald

[Jimmayo]

Re: Soldiers wearing English accoutrements

Attached is a picture of a ball bag take n at the Atlanta History Center by myself a couple of years ago. The other one was taken at the SCCRR & Museum in Columbia S.C.. This one is stamped ' S Isaac Campbell & Co, 71 Jermyn Street London'. It belonged to a soldier named Gunter from the 4th SC inf. This one is slightly different from the regulation one in Atlanta but SIC&Co made stuff for the volunteers only, being banned from the British Army.
What has always perplexed me is how the ordinary soldier would have used it. Would he have used it as a cap pouch? Any ideas on this?

Dave Burt

It may be useful for some to save that pictue of the S Isaac Campbell & Co marking. There are numerous snake buckle belts which appeared over 25 years ago which were stamped with a oval type of S Isaac Campbell & Co stamp. I checked into the stamping back then and found out it was not correct. The stamping should be as shown on the ball bag.

[DBURT]

Re: Soldiers wearing English accoutrements

Jim, quite correct. The only oval stamp I have seen for SIC&Co is on their knapsack. The other knapsack stamp is in the large stencilled letters. See attahed photos of the one I took in the MOC, it was on a P1860 pouch. Not a very good photo though I'm afraid. The other photo is of a stamp on the back of a frog.

Dave Burt

[Mississippian]

Re: Soldiers wearing English accoutrements

Dave,

I didn't see it posted, but here is a link with the image of the soldier you first posted. His name is Jonathan Iverson Johnson.

http://www.petersburgbreakthrough.org/49thGAnotes.html

Will MacDonald

[David Fox]

Re: Soldiers wearing English accoutrements

Jim: Bogus stampings in old British leather, along with fake Southron belt plates (Marines, "Scotch Rifle Guards", etc) and buttons and a whole raft of other items were exported from England beginning circa 1969 by a company called "CSS Alabama Ltd". Among other claims, they alledged they were salvaging relics from the Confederate raider of the same name. They ran ads in the "Shotgun News" well into the 1970s. There were quite genuine snake belts, plain spoon-and-wreath brown leather volunteer belts, pouches of various sorts, sabre bayonet frogs, etc., bearing false markings. I know. I've still got some. Perhaps to avoid claims of out-and-out fraud, they tended to misspell well-known exporter names. A favorite stamping in leather was "CS Montgomery inspected" in an oval.

[DBURT]

Re: Soldiers wearing English accoutrements

Will, thanks for that. Got him on the roster, Jonathan Iverson Johnson was in the 45th GA, he was wounded at Fredericksburg and never returned to duty. Also found a great letter in the OR's. It is written to Lee by Sec of War Benjamin on Nov 19th 1861 telling Lee to divide the accoutrements off the Fingal between him and Johnston in Virginia. According to 'Entrepot' Johnston had been sent 3,500 sets of English accoutrements in Nov '61, so Lee must have had the same for his men around Savannah...Including the 38th and 61st GA. This is great stuff.

Dave Burt