Ragged Rebel: has the pendulum swung too far the other way?

[SCTiger]

Re: Ragged Rebel: has the pendulum swung too far the other way?

I would study the history of one particular unit and not use examples from across the spectrum. It's a bad extrapolation and the tendency to apply various unrelated anecdotes as the basis of a singular impression is faulty in my opinion. Once again we are more concerned about the image and the appearance, trends in the hobby (pendulum) versus following the specific history of one unit.

[FloridaConscript]

Re: Ragged Rebel: has the pendulum swung too far the other way?

I would study the history of one particular unit and not use examples from across the spectrum. It's a bad extrapolation and the tendency to apply various unrelated anecdotes as the basis of a singular impression is faulty in my opinion. Once again we are more concerned about the image and the appearance, trends in the hobby (pendulum) versus following the specific history of one unit.

I'm not so sure I would call the army wide inspection reports of the 4 ANV Army corps over 5 months unrelated anecdotes.It was a systematic inspection of a dozen divisions using pretty much the same rubric (the inspection report itself). Nor am I using it as the basis of a singular impression. I know the extensive amount of research you have done on the tramp brigade, but I guess I need more than 1 pot on the stove. I like to study different campaigns and theatres. Just in these reports you have units that campaigned in the Valley, around Petersburg, and at Bermuda Hundred.

However, it would seem that the Tramp Brigade has similar issues to the rest of their comrades:

Condition of clothing: August "poor", October and November "bad", December "poor", January "bad".


Military appearance: October through December "indifferent", January "good".


Personal cleanliness: In August "not neat", November "slovenly", December "Troops are uncleanly having been
confined in trenches seven months."

[LibertyHallVols]

Re: Ragged Rebel: has the pendulum swung too far the other way?

The issues that Greg brings up are worthy of discussion. One of the elements of the "campaigner" movement has been seeking the "Plain/Everday/Common". Part of this has been a conscious movement away from groups that seek to represent a specific company of a specific regiment toward groups with no association to an original unit that adopt generic or genericized names. One of the things that gets lost, I think, in the movement toward the generic is the in-depth examination of one unit over time, and along with that, the understanding of the ebb and flow of supply, the deterioration of the condition of the unit, and individuals within the unit, and the effect of being replenished.

On another topic:
Regarding the reliability of reports... is there any likelihood that some reports were exaggerated in the plea for supplies? "My troops are nearly naked, please send clothing!" I wonder if the writing of the soldiers themselves might be worth examining (bearing in-mind that they are merely anedotes, as Greg points out). If studying one type of data source is two-dimensional, perhaps a different source would add depth, perhaps reenforcing some of what is seen in the inspection reports. ...?

[FloridaConscript]

Re: Ragged Rebel: has the pendulum swung too far the other way?

The issues that Greg brings up are worthy of discussion. One of the elements of the "campaigner" movement has been seeking the "Plain/Everday/Common". Part of this has been a conscious movement away from groups that seek to represent a specific company of a specific regiment toward groups with no association to an original unit that adopt generic or genericized names. One of the things that gets lost, I think, in the movement toward the generic is the in-depth examination of one unit over time, and along with that, the understanding of the ebb and flow of supply, the deterioration of the condition of the unit, and individuals within the unit, and the effect of being replenished.

On another topic:
Regarding the reliability of reports... is there any likelihood that some reports were exaggerated in the plea for supplies? "My troops are nearly naked, please send clothing!" I wonder if the writing of the soldiers themselves might be worth examining (bearing in-mind that they are merely anedotes, as Greg points out). If studying one type of data source is two-dimensional, perhaps a different source would add depth, perhaps reenforcing some of what is seen in the inspection reports. ...?

Wick,

I'll take it in chapters.

As far as the "PEC" movement and groups not following a certain unit, I don't know how other fellows do it, but the PG is just a name for some of us SC fellows. Sure we pay special attention to SC units but we like to be able to do several impressions. I think most "mess type" units have a home impression, every body has one impression they do better than others, but I can do coastal defenders (like Guarding Savannah last March or the 32n Ga impression at Olustee) just like I can the 11th Ga muster.

One thing to keep in mind with PEC, though is how similar a lot of CS gear is. We can research the Texas brigade till we are blue in the face, but it likely won't tell us exactly what kind of canteen sling they had, or how it differed from the canteen slings in say Ramseur's NC brigade or in the Stonewall brigade. Perhaps there is one existing original from one of those units, but does it represent a regiment? a brigade? The safety that "PEC" offers is using the tried and true "period materials, pattern and construction methods" to replicate equipment that can be documented to a larger organization. Take the bullseye canteens with a split leather sling. We have a couple originals (echoes, the Jenkins canteen in a private collection doc'd to 6th SC) and we have a couple period photos of Confederate soldiers wearing them. Can I 100% document that style of canteen to the 8th Florida at Cold Harbor? No, I can't. It is reasonable to assume that due to the existing originals and period photos, that a US bullseye canteen with a CS split leather sling was a fairly common canteen for late war use in the ANV.

As far as the ebb and flow of supply, I think the fellows in the North State Rifles do a super job of trying to make group purchases of gear so that every fellow has the same sling and canteen with a similar level of wear and tear.

As far as exaggeration, I don't know. I'm sure it happened, but there may have been some inspectors who may have understated the condition of the troops so as not to reflect poorly on a friend in a command or QM position. I think we are better off taking them at face value as oppossed to trying to extrapolate alterior motives that may or may not be present.

I just ordered a regimental history on the 35th Georgia, one of Thomas' regiments that I pulled a report from. As soon as I get it, I'll give it a quick perusal to see if the man i the ranks view jives with the inspector.

[Brett Asselin]

Re: Ragged Rebel: has the pendulum swung too far the other way?

Gun grease, pork fat and dirt roads are a suit of clothes worst enemy.

Brett Asselin

[LibertyHallVols]

Re: Ragged Rebel: has the pendulum swung too far the other way?

Bryant,

Just to clarify...
I'm not arguing against "PEC" as an impression-building strategy, but merely stating that the movement away from groups with a specific, expressed unit impressions tends to lead folks away from focussed study on a single unit. I'm talking research, not implementation. ;)

[FloridaConscript]

Re: Ragged Rebel: has the pendulum swung too far the other way?

Bryant,

Just to clarify...
I'm not arguing against "PEC" as an impression-building strategy, but merely stating that the movement away from groups with a specific, expressed unit impressions tends to lead folks away from focussed study on a single unit. I'm talking research, not implementation. ;)

Wick,
I'm with ya on that. So many impressions, so little time.

One other thought, though. Often times, the PEC impression for a certain campaign is 80% or more the same for a certain unit on that campaign.* Just take a look at the uniform guidelines for the various gettysburg events over the years. not a whole lot of variance.

*statement applies to confederate impressions post spring 1862. North Carolina units do not apply :)

[dixieflyer]

Re: Ragged Rebel: has the pendulum swung too far the other way?

Bryant,
I recently acquired the 35th GA book myself. (my gr-gr-grandfather was in Co. A), and I look forward to seeing what is in there as well. Now, as to other aspects of this discussion (and I have held off saying anything as I seem to be taken wrong quite a bit lately):

- If you want to "age" your uniform doing yard work, chores, etc. is a good start. However, I can offer another suggestion: if possible, find a living history farm and agricultural museum and see if you can volunteer. Not only will you get some good wear and tear on your trousers, civilian vest, hat, and shirt, but you will also gain much insight and useful 19th c. skills which will only enrich your impression. I did that, and it ended up being a full time job for two and half years.

- During that two and a half years, I had a pair of jean trousers I had gotten from Ch. Childs that I wore at least twice a week to work, sometimes three times. I am here to tell you that jean cloth is not a very abrasion resistant fabric over the long term. At the end of that time they were very well worn, but you know where the hole(s) were? The crotch/seat. Maybe it was the act of climbing over rail fences each day. I did a little riding, but not enough to matter. The knees were quite thin as were the thighs. When I sold them, my wife had sewn THREE patches to the crotch/seat area. (Note: I was skinny then too through physical labor of hewing logs, splitting rails, plowing with horses, etc. in addition to my own PT program, so it was not through being a "thunder thighs" that they got worn out.) My point is that wear patterns must follow some kind of logic.

- Now, on impression building strategies. Everybody has theirs, and different ones work for different groups. When we were searching for a Federal regiment to focus on at Pickett's Mill, we chose one that we thought best represented the average for the Army of the Cumberland at that time. It gave us something specific to focus on, and yet something to research that we thought would have a positive affect outside of just our portrayals at PM. We tried to stay down the middle of the road as much as possible to give us some lee-way in both directions between worn out and recently issued/outfitted, depending on scenario.

[vamick]

Re: Ragged Rebel: has the pendulum swung too far the other way?

I was surprised to find that a ggfather of mine in the 36th Va infantry got issued a new uniform ( jacket and pants..no mention of shoes ) in September of 1864! so re-supply issues vary greatly

[Marc29thGA]

Re: Ragged Rebel: has the pendulum swung too far the other way?

The book on the 35th GA (Red Clay to Richmond by John J. Fox) is a great book and one in my library - one of my favorites, learning about a connection with the 35th and my hometown in Appendix F that one day I need to dig more into. I have not read it in a few years (but plan too again) but do not recall much of anything on inspection reports/condition of the troops. One issue of equipment to the regiment I recall from the book is the expection of drawing "tents of the French type" in early '62.

In "Letters to Amanda - The Civil War Letters of Marion Hill Fitzpatrick" edited by Jeffrey Lowe & Sam Hodges, Fitzpatrick talks about reparing clothing for the people of his company/regiment as well as drawing clothing and receiving a lot of clothing items from home during his service. Fitzpatrick served with the 45th Georgia, so one could support a mix of newly issued, patched and/or civilian clothing at various points during the war for the 45th. Which may hold true for many other units throughout the CS ranks.

[jake.koch]

Re: Ragged Rebel: has the pendulum swung too far the other way?

Could the degree of ragged be a 20th Century viewpoint? This may sound confusing but how ragged is ragged?

How would this differ from the times when Union troops were ragged (Siege of Chattanooga, Retreat from Lynchburg, March to the Sea, Carolinas Campaign)? For most of the time the U.S. definately had an advantage in material and equipment, however at times when this was the case was their degree of "ragged" comparable to that of the rebs in similiar situations? Would C.S. troops perhaps double efforts to keep their uniforms in shape knowing that at times they may not get refitted for awhile whereas Union troops would make less effort because they knew they could get replacement earlier? Lastly I think it is important to note that our idea of ragged by todays standards probably differ from their standards in cleanliness etc. Jobs in the civilian world at that time had a better chance of getting people downright dirty than today - say farming/spring plowing for example.

It would be interesting to figure this as a scale of 1 to 10 and compare and contrast both sides at different points throughout the war.

[GreencoatCross]

Re: Ragged Rebel: has the pendulum swung too far the other way?

Jake,

Excellent point, one that I think the attached photograph may help to illustrate. This is a post-war albumen of an original CS jacket. It was found among the war-time letters and 1862 portrait, and post-war items of David H. Lucchesi, Company A 2nd Maryland Infantry (CS). Lucchesi was paroled at Appomattox but refused to take the Oath and could not return home to Baltimore. Instead he walked 20-30 miles a day trying to join Johnston's army but failed. Since this photograph was found with other items relating directly to Lucchesi, it could be possible that it's his late-issue jacket depicted.

Not very ragged is it....despite what looks like moth holes I mean.

[Vuhginyuh]

Re: Ragged Rebel: has the pendulum swung too far the other way?

Letters from Camp Crabtree (near) Raleigh in '61 and from "the road near Kinston" in early 62 spelled out the worst over-all clothing and shoe conditions for Tarheels I have read. It seems that the red clay at Crabtree liked to eat one shoe at a time. Never two at a time, much less two in one week.

[FloridaConscript]

Re: Ragged Rebel: has the pendulum swung too far the other way?

I think we may have 2 different discussions here, probably due to a poorly worded title on the OPs part. As Wick has said, and as Marc makes reference to, I think the average soldier tried to mend his clothing as far as his circumstances allowed.Wear and tear is universal. I guess the point I am trying to make is, even when the times were good for the average Johnny in regards to central QM clothing, it was more a matter of less bad. Even in the summer and fall og 64 when domestic production was up and 1 out of every 3 blockade runners were coming through, the CS Qm system still struggled to met basic needs.

[18th us regulars]

Re: Ragged Rebel: has the pendulum swung too far the other way?

I do not agree with this line. If a General of a Brigade or Division, where to come in on a report; do you not think the Quarter Master would do everything in his power to clear up this problem up? I do, remember that it’s his job to keep up his men. And, look at the time of the year this written. I have not seen one picture of one dead Confederate that was missing his shoes. What about the massive depot purge in the later part of the war? Sam Watkins seems to always have food to be able to buy when he was not issued rations. I am not saying that at every moment they had what they wanted. But, read some of the Northern Prisoners reports that came home during the war, they seem to have the Foe in Dark Grey jackets and Blue pants and not a wanting for weapons either. Not to say if the latest and greatest weapon was not wanted, but at least they could shoot back. Even Longstreet was pulling bullets during the retreat from Knoxville Tennessee. And this was the hardest winter they saw and they were cut off from the rest of the Confederacy. Let’s do the research right and quit looking for the great the Confederates could not rub to sticks together to get fire. Just my two cents worth.