Ragged Rebel: has the pendulum swung too far the other way?

[Sprowls]

Re: Ragged Rebel: has the pendulum swung too far the other way?

The following is a good book regarding the capabilities and evolution of the CS supply system:

Title: Confederate industry : manufacturers and quartermasters in the Civil War
Author: Wilson, Harold
University Press of Mississippi
2002
ISBN 1578064627

Chuck Sprowls

[FloridaConscript]

Re: Ragged Rebel: has the pendulum swung too far the other way?

I do not agree with this line. If a General of a Brigade or Division, where to come in on a report; do you not think the Quarter Master would do everything in his power to clear up this problem up? I do, remember that it’s his job to keep up his men. And, look at the time of the year this written. I have not seen one picture of one dead Confederate that was missing his shoes. What about the massive depot purge in the later part of the war? Sam Watkins seems to always have food to be able to buy when he was not issued rations. I am not saying that at every moment they had what they wanted. But, read some of the Northern Prisoners reports that came home during the war, they seem to have the Foe in Dark Grey jackets and Blue pants and not a wanting for weapons either. Not to say if the latest and greatest weapon was not wanted, but at least they could shoot back. Even Longstreet was pulling bullets during the retreat from Knoxville Tennessee. And this was the hardest winter they saw and they were cut off from the rest of the Confederacy. Let’s do the research right and quit looking for the great the Confederates could not rub to sticks together to get fire. Just my two cents worth.

1. I did not address arms.
2. Nor did I question the average Johnny's ability to make fire.

Brigade and Regimental QMs were still limited in what they could get. They could requisition all day long, but if those requests aren't filled, it doesn't matter. Look at the clothing returns, and it very much in smaller quantities...enough to cover the most needy.

In regards to massive depot purges, I would suggest that is a function of a lacking logistics system...just because it was manufactured does not mean it got issued.

I'd be careful with Watkins as well. Pat Lewis and some others have done some excellent research on Co.H. Watkins was the son of one of the wealthiest men in Columbia county. he had a personal servant for a good amount of the war. Not exactly your run of the mill Johnny.


http://www.cosmeo.com/images/picture...1750d12d99.jpg

[Jeff Dugdale]

Re: Ragged Rebel: has the pendulum swung too far the other way?

Brigade and Regimental QMs were still limited in what they could get. They could requisition all day long, but if those requests aren't filled, it doesn't matter. Look at the clothing returns, and it very much in smaller quantities...enough to cover the most needy.




http://www.cosmeo.com/images/picture...1750d12d99.jpg

How many requisition forms have you studied?I have examined thousands of company returns over the years and very few cover only the most needy.The bulk almost always show what was requested was always issued.In many cases extravagent issues were the norm throughout the war,especially with North Carolina,South Carolina and Georgia units.
Jeff Dugdale

[18th us regulars]

Re: Ragged Rebel: has the pendulum swung too far the other way?

http://www.civilwarphotos.net/files/images/827.jpg

Look at the picture you put on here it's a boy in a grave not a trench. Here is a trench shot for you. Sam Watkins never wrote about his slave or even went as far as to even say "a slave came with us on our march", now a rich planter like Col. James Cooper Nesbit in the 66th Georgia has a slave all the way up Dalton Georgia. He wrote after the war like Sam did. Also, the South to justify them losing the War came up with the idea that if there were no supplies then how can you win! What research have you done for your own impression?

http://www.civilwarphotos.net/view/826.htm

[FloridaConscript]

Re: Ragged Rebel: has the pendulum swung too far the other way?

http://www.civilwarphotos.net/files/images/827.jpg

Look at the picture you put on here it's a boy in a grave not a trench. Here is a trench shot for you. Sam Watkins never wrote about his slave or even went as far as to even say "a slave came with us on our march", now a rich planter like Col. James Cooper Nesbit in the 66th Georgia has a slave all the way up Dalton Georgia. He wrote after the war like Sam did. Also, the South to justify them losing the War came up with the idea that if there were no supplies then how can you win! What research have you done for your own impression?


http://www.civilwarphotos.net/view/826.htm

Be careful with Watkins. He talked about being at Franklin and the historical record has shown that is not true.

What in the barefoot photo suggests to you that is a grave? It looks to me like he is by a parapet.

I'd put my research on my impressions up against anyone's on this board.

[Hank Trent]

Re: Ragged Rebel: has the pendulum swung too far the other way?


Just to complicate this a bit further, attached is an image from a northern cartoon, showing the classic barefoot, patched ragged rebels.

Problem is, it's from Vanity Fair, August 24, 1861, in a cartoon about First Bull Run.

At that time, the ragged rebel cliche was being used to ridicule the hubris of the underfunded, under-trained army of the south. So the "myth" began right from the start, but was used in different ways and gained or lost strength depending on various agendas.

As far as the reality, I think it's much easier to document and portray specific times and places, rather than seeking for one thing that will best sum up everyone everywhere throughout the whole war. When trying for sweeping generalizations, it's always going to be controversial to make the necessary judgment calls about what's a minor exception vs. a major flaw that challenges the truth of the premise.

Hank Trent
hanktrent@gmail.com

[Jim S]

Re: Ragged Rebel: has the pendulum swung too far the other way?

[ATTACH=CONFIG]35729[/ATTACH]
Just to complicate this a bit further, attached is an image from a northern cartoon, showing the classic barefoot, patched ragged rebels.

Problem is, it's from Vanity Fair, August 24, 1861, in a cartoon about First Bull Run.

At that time, the ragged rebel cliche was being used to ridicule the hubris of the underfunded, under-trained army of the south. So the "myth" began right from the start, but was used in different ways and gained or lost strength depending on various agendas.

As far as the reality, I think it's much easier to document and portray specific times and places, rather than seeking for one thing that will best sum up everyone everywhere throughout the whole war. When trying for sweeping generalizations, it's always going to be controversial to make the necessary judgment calls about what's a minor exception vs. a major flaw that challenges the truth of the premise.

Hank Trent
hanktrent@gmail.com

Exactly. Not appreciating how much the situation could vary from time to time, and unit to unit, is how we end up arguing past each other as if two different conditions are mutually exclusive. We must move beyond generalizations. You cannot say much of anything about the whole CS army from one account or photo. You cannot, for example, calculate how many men in the army had knapsacks or kepis from one prisoner photo, or even a few, but people have done so. In the case of knapsacks, in 1864 ordnance docs show there were regiments with nearly none and regiments fully equipped, and others in between, so what use is trying to determine an "average"? It tells you nothing about any specific unit and only leads to conflict when an account or person contradicts that figure.

The photo Bryant posted is part of the Fort Mahone series by Roche, and is most definitely not a grave. However, the boy still has one sock on (which his pant leg is bloused into, uh-oh) so it's unclear whether he was interrupted while dressing or someone stole his footwear and one sock came off with the shoe. Here's a pic of a barefooted Reb at Antietam (download the largest TIFF file and then click on the resulting image for the huge, crystal clear versions that are several times the size of your computer screen):

Hagerstown Pike, bottom right foreground:

http://www.loc.gov/pictures/collecti...2003000131/PP/


Really, I wonder how many people realize how clear the LOC high res pics are. I know my browser wasn't letting me download them at first, and the day I got past that and realized how big and clear they were I sat here all day with my jaw on the floor. When you can look at the famous "sharpshooter" at Devil's Den and actually count his buttonhole stitches and see his pores (which is very disturbing the first time), you're opening up a whole world of new details in pictures you thought you knew.

[JimConley]

Re: Ragged Rebel: has the pendulum swung too far the other way?

Really, I wonder how many people realize how clear the LOC high res pics are. I know my browser wasn't letting me download them at first, and the day I got past that and realized how big and clear they were I sat here all day with my jaw on the floor. When you can look at the famous "sharpshooter" at Devil's Den and actually count his buttonhole stitches and see his pores (which is very disturbing the first time), you're opening up a whole world of new details in pictures you thought you knew.

Oh, man, are you right! I discovered the mega-size, hi-res LoC images this summer. I spent several afternoons downloading as many images as I could. The amount of detail really is amazing considering that we're looking at 150 year old images and we are able to examine them so thoroughly.

I'd put my research on my impressions up against anyone's on this board.

Bryant,
Careful now. This website and its membership has deteriorated over the years, but please be cognizant of the fact that you still have a few fellows hanging around here that warrant more respect than that. There are guys signed up here that have been involved in cornerstone research projects, studied and maintained public and private collections of original artifacts and documents, and have been involved in this hobby longer than you and I have been alive. Trust me, I understand becoming a little defensive when someone takes a jab at you, but it's not worth the effort, brother.

Now, to the topic at hand. My interpretation of the "ragged" Confederate is by no means all encompassing. As a generalization, I believe that we all understand the basic principle that the status of Southern industry and economic capability was second rate in comparison to the US during the war. However, I believe that the aptitude of the Confederacy regarding military supply has been dumbed down. The ability to acquire, produce, and distribute military clothing and equipment was greater than what many would consider “common.” It is remarkable to consider that the Confederacy was as effective as it was considering blockades that hindered European supplies being imported and the fact that they had to operate with occupying Union armies that continued to seize Southern cities, supply depots, and railroads.

Again, to be general, the condition of a specific portion(s) of Confederates depended on time period, location, and overall circumstances. It is easy enough to find a letter from some soldier or an officer’s report that describe rough circumstances at a particular time or location regarding clothing and/or equipment throughout the war. And the Confederacy, no doubt, had to exhibit resourcefulness. But, soldiers eventually received what they had a need for. I would venture to say that because of their limitations (some mentioned above), the Confederate Government was not able to supply its soldiers in as timely a manner as was needed, which would exemplify periods where the “ragged rebel” would be seen. There has been plenty of documentation describing the readily available supplies in Confederate hands during significant periods of the war. But, getting those supplies to an active army was quite another task. It would even have been a difficult task, at times, to supply troops that were static depending upon the positions of the enemy and the route/mode of transportation that would have been needed to deliver those supplies.

There is always evidence to the contrary as well. Two brief examples from times when the ANV was, arguably, most described as “rough” or “ragged” were the 1862 Maryland Campaign and the spring of 1865. Yet, studying images of the Confederate dead at Sharpsburg/Antietam or the image of the prisoners at Five Forks can certainly offer a varying insight to conditions during those specific periods. And there is also evidence of clothing distribution a couple months and even weeks before the Confederate armies surrendered as noted by some surviving originals, such as the Zehring jacket and some of the Tait jackets attributed to North Carolina in 1865.

[18th us regulars]

Re: Ragged Rebel: has the pendulum swung too far the other way?

Thanks to Jim and Hank and Conscript, I love what is happening here, the last few post are right. We need to put the best for the public and show them what this war was about. I agree, but I do not know what or why Sam has came to so much discord? But his books are newspaper article first. They where to tell a story of what he saw, some say he locked up his room and you could hear him crying and sobbing all day long just to write about Franklin’s Battle.

[Pumpkinslinger]

Re: Ragged Rebel: has the pendulum swung too far the other way?

http://www.civilwarphotos.net/files/images/827.jpg

Look at the picture you put on here it's a boy in a grave not a trench. Here is a trench shot for you. Sam Watkins never wrote about his slave or even went as far as to even say "a slave came with us on our march", now a rich planter like Col. James Cooper Nesbit in the 66th Georgia has a slave all the way up Dalton Georgia. He wrote after the war like Sam did. Also, the South to justify them losing the War came up with the idea that if there were no supplies then how can you win! What research have you done for your own impression?

http://www.civilwarphotos.net/view/826.htm

In your second photo, has anyone ever noticed that looks like a buried leg to the left of the chevaux-de-fris?

[GreencoatCross]

Re: Ragged Rebel: has the pendulum swung too far the other way?

This may be off-topic but for those interested, the series of photographs from the Hagerstown Pike at Antietam also show a pretty good hodge-podge of uniforms and gear in various states of repair. There is one Confederate wearing a Federal overcoat, another in a Federal blouse, one wearing a knit shirt under a homespun shirt and French knapsack on his back, a Federal forage cap and a black soutache-trimmed kepi, coverlet in the distance, etc. etc..

Mike, yes, in another thread it was agreed that there is indeed a buried CS casualty in that image. At the top right is a visible tuft of hair and the underarm seam/body and sleeve of his kersey jacket. A belt loop is visible towards the bottom of the visible jacket seam. Below that are a portion of his trousers.

[JimConley]

Re: Ragged Rebel: has the pendulum swung too far the other way?

Here is one of the images that Brian is referring to. Of course, from the Library of Congress.

Title: Antietam, Maryland. Bodies of dead, Louisiana Regiment.
Call Number: LC-B811- 567

The mega size hi-res image is too large to attach, so I have attached a smaller, full version of the image.

The subsequent attachments are all cropped sections of some of the details Brian indicated.

[unclefrank]

Re: Ragged Rebel: has the pendulum swung too far the other way?

I take care of my kit for the simple reason is that good authentic clothing and gear is so expensive. After dropping all that cash, I find it hard to let it go to seed. Of I look too "fresh" then so be it.

[Paul L Muller]

Re: Ragged Rebel: has the pendulum swung too far the other way?

If you look real close that is not a leg, but a shoulder.You can make out how the buried body is on it's side and the leg is bent, poor fellow is nearly covered up. plm