CS and CSA belt buckle questions

[ContinentalMorganGuard]

For years I have been told, read, and preached different ideas about the use, type and style of Confederate Central Governement issue belt plates. The more I think I know the less I feel I know.

My question is thus: Is there a hard and fast rule for the use of certains styles and time periods for them in each Theatre in the war? I tried the search function and didn't come up with much.

Some examples:
The rectangular C.S.A buckle with the frame around it, I once understood was only seen in the West, however there is an example of one at the Antietam Visitors center.

I once understood the typical sutler oval CS buckle was only used in the east.

The rounded square CS buckle with frame around it I have read was Western Theatre and thern I've read it was Eastern Theater.

So, you can see my dilemma, I usually just steer clear of any type of CS plate when doing either Theater, as to not be wrong. Any help you can give me would be greatly appreciated!

[FloridaConscript]

Re: CS and CSA belt buckle questions

Robert,

are you looking for general info on CS plates or help with a specific impression?

[ContinentalMorganGuard]

Re: CS and CSA belt buckle questions

I'm really just looking for rules, if any exisit, for general purposes on which plates were used where. However more specific information would be appreciated as well. I know there are a few buckle books out there but I don't own any and I'm not sure if they would be of much help for what I want to know. I will review the own relic book I own to see what it says!

[hireddutchcutthroat]

Re: CS and CSA belt buckle questions

A really good way to figure out when and where things like buckles buttons etc were used was to check out the relic websites. If they were not there they wouldnt be in the dirt would they!?

[tiger_rifles]

Re: CS and CSA belt buckle questions

A really good way to figure out when and where things like buckles buttons etc were used was to check out the relic websites. If they were not there they wouldnt be in the dirt would they!?

Very good point, it is easier to look at a certain buckle or button and find those places that it has been recovered, or look at a certain area and research the items found there. But then how do you explain this? Summer of 1982 I was involved in a F&I War event at Fort Fredrick Md. We were in the woods just out of sight of the fort and waiting in ambush. I kicked a rotten log aside and found this buckle:

http://i720.photobucket.com/albums/ww207/tiger_rifles/DSCN0338.jpg

http://i720.photobucket.com/albums/ww207/tiger_rifles/DSCN0334.jpg

http://i720.photobucket.com/albums/ww207/tiger_rifles/DSCN0330.jpg

http://i720.photobucket.com/albums/ww207/tiger_rifles/DSCN0331.jpg

I have been told that it is real/original and just a very rare, poss. local made CS Buckle. I have also been told it is a fake/copy of the Western Army buckle that is normally cast brass and not lead filled lik ethis one. But if you go to all the trouble to copy this buckle, stamp out the brass, make or use belt hooks that are just like the originals, fill it with lead, and then age it........ why only make ONE?

[Regimental Colours]

Re: CS and CSA belt buckle questions

The buckle books can be of some help in your research, the relics recovered from battlefields and camp sites can help in your research, and so can period photographs. Great buckle images are few and far between, but there are some great ones out there. Here is one of my favorites.

James B. Warren, 16th Louisiana, Killed at Murfreesboro December 1862.

[Roger Hansen]

Re: CS and CSA belt buckle questions

The "clip corner" CS belt plate (with black paint in the recessed area) along with "cast I" buttons show up for the first time about Oct / Nov 1863 in the Chattanooga area. They are very common on AoT sites from then until the surrender - in Tennessee, Mississippi, Georgia, South Carloina, and around Mobile, Alabama.

Because of the number of deep south soldiers that convalesced / furloughed in the deep south and then went back to Virginia, along with periodic supplies diverted north, some of these plates are found in Virginia.

Related: A volunteer study performed among relic hunters in the Confederate winter camp areas at Dalton, Georgia in 1981 indicated 14 US belt plates dug for every 1 CS or State found at that time. Of course, the soldiers entered these winter camps after capturing great amounts of material at Chickamauga. A review of relic magazines will show a number of US ovals converted to CS and even spoons made with US ovals after removing the lead found in these camps.
Roger Hansen

[Jimmayo]

Re: CS and CSA belt buckle questions

I have also been told it is a fake/copy of the Western Army buckle that is normally cast brass and not lead filled like this one.

Who ever told you that is correct. That is a reproduction and a very poor one at that.

But to the question at hand. There is no one case fits all answer. I am not a buckle expert but here is how I see it.

There were a number of CS government issued buckles of various designs. Examples of the same buckle may show up in the Western and Eastern theaters of operation. However a particular design may be more prevalent in certain areas where they were issued. Also the number of buckle issues varied among the different style buckles. IMO the rectangular CSA solid brass buckle seems to be the most commonly found CS marked issued brass buckle for infantry use. For example: Years ago it was thought that the rectangular CSA buckle were strictly a Western item but time has shown that they are found in the Eastern sites also. I know of one found around Five Forks and I believe there is a book with one found at Gettysburg. However a greater number appear to have been found in Western sites.

But, when selecting a buckle you also have to compare the number of all cast brass buckles with the letters CS or CSA on the face against other buckles such as the wishbone or forked tongue, Georgia frame, Tongue and Wreath, US and the lowly iron roller buckle. Those type buckles were more common and widespread than the cast brass CS or CSA lettered buckles.

Good luck

[Regimental Colours]

Re: CS and CSA belt buckle questions

There were a number of CS government issued buckles of various designs. Examples of the same buckle may show up in the Western and Eastern theaters of operation. However a particular design may be more prevalent in certain areas where they were issued. Also the number of buckle issues varied among the different style buckles. IMO the rectangular CSA solid brass buckle seems to be the most commonly found CS marked issued brass buckle for infantry use. For example: Years ago it was thought that the rectangular CSA buckle were strictly a Western item but time has shown that they are found in the Eastern sites also. I know of one found around Five Forks and I believe there is a book with one found at Gettysburg. However a greater number appear to have been found in Western sites.

But, when selecting a buckle you also have to compare the number of all cast brass buckles with the letters CS or CSA on the face against other buckles such as the wishbone or forked tongue, Georgia frame, Tongue and Wreath, US and the lowly iron roller buckle. Those type buckles were more common and widespread than the cast brass CS or CSA lettered buckles.

Well said Jim.

[ContinentalMorganGuard]

Re: CS and CSA belt buckle questions

Thanks for all the info guys. I agree about using other buckles versus CS and CSA plates I use a roller and GA frame a lot, and use a VA plate and clip corner when doing early Virginia impressions. I figured the there was no good rule out there and if I get a wild hair to get a CS style plate I'll keep loking at originals and where they were found, to see if it is time and place appropriate. However if anyone has more info and images I'd love to see them keep coming on here because I'm sure there are others who would love to see them as well! Thanks again!

[tiger_rifles]

Re: CS and CSA belt buckle questions

[QUOTE=Jimmayo;213182]Who ever told you that is correct. That is a reproduction and a very poor one at that. QUOTE)

OK Jim, this is what most say when wishing to dismiss me or think I am just trying to make a buck. But for those that really look at the buckle they often say , 'WEll, MAYBE!!!"

I have compaired this buckle with every "11 Star CS" I can find and none are a match. Here is Hanover Brass page #11 with the buckle found at Vicksburg, and Hanovers copy.

http://hanoverbrass.com/Buckles11.htm

This buckle is the closest to mine, being that the "CS" is small,(he has another on page #8 w/large "CS"), but like all the cast brass buckles the edge is flat, where mine is rounded. Also, the two stars behind the "CS" are close together, where mine are much further apart, and the ends of the "CS" are very sharp edged where mine is rounded, also the "CS" on mine is rounded, not flat faced. This is most clear when looking at The CS Belt Buckles Book by Steve Mullinax, Page #79.
I also believe that this buckle was dropped/lost by a re-enactor. Almost no CS activity in this area,(that I can find), its known to be a "Western Style" buckle, etc.... Poss. that a re-enactor cleaned this buckle, then got landed on by others for cleaning an original, then decided to darken it again.....
I DOn't know! Not sure I care.
Heres my point, why would someone in the 1970's copy a 11Star CS, but not exactly, make steel dyes, use a heavy press to stamp ONE plate that is made from a high copper content, (copper that is showing is very red), fill it w/lead using original arrowhead style hooks( not the one peice hooks and tonge availible then and now), and so on and so on. Then shape it to look as if it has had alot of use, age it (but not do a good job), THEN plant it in an area that had no real use by CS Troops, with no hope of ever makeing a Dime for all thier work ???????
But my point is not to prove this buckle real..... my point is if folks went to this much trouble to plant a fake 40 years ago, how can we trust what we find now in CS buckles and buttons? AND, because we find a high number of "US" plates and roller buckles in CS camps does this mean they used them often, or just that they threw them away often?

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: CS and CSA belt buckle questions

Hallo!

Just an unrelated aside.

In 1976, during my early North-South Skirmish daze, I was wearing an original 1872 era infantry cap bugle. I lost it somewhere on the Perryville, KY battlefield. It is going to drive some collector or archeologist crazy.

:)

Curt

[rpierson]

Re: CS and CSA belt buckle questions

Paul,

I believe the answer to your real vs. fake question lies in the shape of the hooks. I don't have my buckle books on hand, but I can't think of an original CS plate that has arrow hooks similar to those used on the later iteration of the standard issue U.S. plate and like those on your battlefield recovery. Viewed another way, those same arrow hooks have appeared on EVERY cheap repro plate available since probably the beginning of time, so the evidence against that particular item being original is hefty. Also, the lead is problematic as that style of plate was generally solid brass.

"Heres my point, why would someone in the 1970's copy a 11Star CS, but not exactly..."

You could ask that question about most bad reproductions. Anyway, I like the story of how you found it. I'll bet your heart stopped.

-Randall Pierson

[cwpilgrim]

Re: CS and CSA belt buckle questions

I believe the best work on the CS buckles and plates is by Steve Mullinax "Confederate Belt Buckles and Plates".
Filled with actual photos, where recovered, and frequency of use, so you can better determine the accuracy of the buckle you are wearing for a specific impression.

It is extremely thorough and goes well beyond what most people are interested in.

[Cumpston1862]

Re: CS and CSA belt buckle questions

Robert-

It is very difficult to pin down what unit was wearing what buckle. Even if you can find documentation that a unit recieved wishbone buckles on such and such date as an example that doesn't mean every guy in the unit took it. If a soldier had made it through 10 battles unscathed and his gear was still in serviceable shape would you change gear...probably not. You would keep the same stuff that kept you safe until now.

Not to mention that soldiers traded gear, field modified it and even stole from eachother. There were all sorts of buckles and gear coming in from the blockade too.