Blued Austrian Lorenz

[delawaric]

What little information I have managed to find online about the Austrian Lorenz mentions that some of them were blued or browned. I have not been able to find anymore detailed information on this or pictures of any (blued) surviving examples. I am curious as to whether or not every component of the Lorenz had been blued vs just parts of it and was part of the bayonet blued like those for the P53 Enfield. If anyone can point me in the right direction as to where I can find the answers to my questions (on or off-line) as well as just more info on the Lorenz I would appreciate it. I'm not looking to be spoon fed any answers here just nudged in the right direction.
Thanks in advance.
~Woody

[LibertyHallVols]

Re: Blued Austrian Lorenz

Care to cite a source for the bluing of Lorenz muskets? You mention "on-line"... Do you have a link? I am curious as I have never before heard mention of a blued Lorenz, "as manufactured".

Thanks,

[Alexander Vasquez]

Re: Blued Austrian Lorenz

I owned an M1854 flank rifle-musket (flip up long range sight, no cheekpiece) with bayonet, and have seen perhaps a hundred of these firearms over the past 20 years. I have also been to the Heeresgeschichtliches Museum in Vienna, and have seen their collection of the Lorenz in all variations. I have seen a couple here in the US that had a laquered coating, and a couple that were "rust-browned" from neglect, but all others were entirely bright. The bayonet even had a sort of "chrome" coating on it, blade and socket (best way I can describe what it looked like). The ones in Vienna had a near mirror finish. Others may have different experiences, but I'd go off of what Vienna had and say they should be all bright.

The best book for these weapons is called "Die Hand-und faustfeuerwaffen des Hapsburgischen Herre" by Erich Gabriel; it used to be if you wrote a polite letter in German to the Heeresges. they'd send you copies of the relevant pages from that book. I believe it retailed back in the early 90s for about $75 and could only be ordered from Vienna.

Alexander Vasquez
Co. C, 15 IA

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Blued Austrian Lorenz

Hallo!

The "literature" is pretty silent on this one, other than writers voicing their opinions like Joe Bilby's article and others referencing it (usually without citation).

I had two references that talks about colored Lorenz's, but it is useless now that it is trapped in my dead hard drive. It talks about color case hardened lock and hammer, blued barrel, and blued furniture and being the "Austrian Enfield." And the second spoke to being armory struck bright.

Much like the Enfield discussion, it helps to be able to disassemble some looking to see what traces or remnants of color are "underneath."'

(An interesting side discussion was whether the butt plates were bright on colored (as left the factories) M1854's as would later be seen on German rifles.)

As shared, the vast majority of unpatinaed (naturally brown oxidation) M1854's are found bright, as are those seen in Period images where light refraction is not an issue.

However, there are rare exceptions.

Here is a set of really crappy quality images that show the remnants of color case hardening on the lock, a blued barrel, and blued furniture- but they are all I have.











Curt

[delawaric]

Re: Blued Austrian Lorenz

Thanks fellas. It sounds like there's not a whole lot out there. Other than the Joe Bilby article that Curt mentioned the only other sources I have seen are from the Springfield Armory Museum, http://ww2.rediscov.com/spring/VFPCG...TABASE=objects, and various Lorenz descriptions on relic sites mention they were both blued and struck bright. http://www.collegehillarsenal.com/sh...p?productid=89 .

[Don Dixon]

Re: Blued Austrian Lorenz

All the Muster 1854 Lorenz System arms produced for the Austro-Hungarian Army were produced as arsenal bright. Having said that, a number of blued arms were sent to America during the American Civil War.

First, you should understand that when these Muster 1854 arms were contemporaniously referred to as "browned," they were describing arms that were rust blued.

In his February 13, 1862, report on Boker and Company arms deliveries, Captain S. Crispin, USA, New York Ordnance Office, reported that Boker and Company Sample No. 4 consisited of .58 caliber Muster 1854 System Lorenz rifles "barrel and lock blued." At the time of the report, 7,376 such arms had been received. (Report by the Commission on Ordnance and Ordnance Stores, 1862)

On October 7, 1862, Marcellius Hartley wrote to Secretary of War Stanton from Berlin that he had purchased 30,000 Muster 1854 Austrian infantry rifles in Vienna. Twenty thousand of the weapons had blued barrels, leaf sights, angular bayonets, and were in .58 caliber. The rifles were apparently commercially manufactured, because Hartley observed that “The arms are all entirely new, but will have to be carefully inspected and packed, as there is no dependence to be placed upon any of the manufacturers. It will take six weeks to ship them all.” (Howe (Hartley), p. 132

I own a Muster 1854, Type II, rifle manufactured by Ferdinand Fruwirth, a Vienna gunmaker. The barrel, lock, and furniture are blued. As is typical of the arms manufacuted by Austrian contactors for export, the stock has no cheek piece and the lock is not marked with the year and double headed Imperial eagle, since it was never accepted for Imperial service. The bore measures .540 [13.7 mm], which was the American standard for .54 caliber arms. This is so much smaller than the Austrian ordnance standard of .547 [13.9 mm] that it was certainly manufactured for a Federal contract.

So, legitimate blued Muster 1854 rifles are out there, but they were always a small percentage of what was imported.

Regards,
Don Dixon

[delawaric]

Re: Blued Austrian Lorenz

Thank you Don. That was exactly the kind of information I was looking for.

[LibertyHallVols]

Re: Blued Austrian Lorenz

Don,

Great information! I was curious what is known about Ferdinand Fruwirth.
I have an 1860-dated Lorenz with a stock-cartouche indicating it was manufactured by Fruwirth ("FF860 below the tang of the triggerguard).

The lock is marked with the double-headed eagle and is marked "860" and it features a cheek-piece stock and long range site. The piece was converted from 54 to 58 caliber. The metal, though not pristine, appears to have been "armory bright", not blued.

It would appear that he also did government work?

Thanks!

[Archie R. Lib]

Re: Blued Austrian Lorenz

Gents -

I found this on Gunbroker while searching a couple weeks ago for an Austrian - this one is an 1857 manufactured Lorenz with blueing. It was either imported or later channeled to .58 caliber.

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=269219884

I found it interesting, as I have not seen many of them in this blued condition and configuration. It is difficult for me to tell if this is a production blueing or if this was something that was added later. There are those on the forum that have much more expertise than I in that area.....

Thanks,
Rich

[delawaric]

Re: Blued Austrian Lorenz

That Gunbroker listing is actually what sparked my interest . Prior to seeing this listing I assumed all where in the bright. I did email the seller and he informed me the blueing was not original but added by the previous owner.

[Don Dixon]

Re: Blued Austrian Lorenz

John

On 1 January 1861, the entire U.S. Army consisted of approximately 16,000 officers and men. At the same time the Austro-Hungarian Army (k.k. Army) consisted of more than 600,000 officers and men. During full mobilization, their requirement for arms was significantly larger.

The primary source of k.k. Army arms was the main arsenal in Vienna, which routinely manufactured 2,400 stand of arms per week. This production was supplemented by other state arsenals in the Empire who repaired arms and produced smaller quantities of arms, and by contractors who provided arms to the state. Fruwirth was the dean of the private arms manufacturers located in Vienna, and provided substantive quantities of arms under contract to the k.k. Army.

Beginning in 1842 Feldzeugmeister Baron von Augustin, the chief of k.k. Army ordnance, directed that the locks for all k.k. Army weapons be finished at the Vienna arsenal. Some parts - screws, and some lockplates and bridles - were made by contractors, but the remaining parts were manufactured at, and the finishing was done at, the Vienna arsenal.

So, you have a rifle that was manufactured by Fruwirth for the k.k. Army, with a lock from the Vienna arsenal. The American concept that the date on the lock represents the year that the rifle was made is incorrect. The date on the lock only represents the date that the lock was manufactured at the arsenal. (Modecai, Gabreil, Dolleczek, and discussions with the Austrian Army Museum staff)


Regards,
Don Dixon