Witney Revolvers

[Indianabugles]

I have recentley come across several very nice and well made repros of these in the UK and I do ave a ticket to get one. This is quite rare for I am in the UK. But I know little here. I have currently got a 3rd mod dragoon(Ticket), CS Colt .36 brass frame(Blank) and brass frame remington (Blank) (Probably the least PEC of the three and wrong on many counts) but.... to the Witneys
I found out there were 33,000 Witneys, not common but certainly not uber rare.
They were bought by the US gov on bulk and private purchase.
They were not massive popular.


Beyond that its a little hard to get much, can anyone else cast some light if it is worth getting one of these as a addition to the above or what units had or may have had these guns.

[LibertyHallVols]

Re: Witney Revolvers

Any idea who's making these? Any other info available?

Thanks!

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Witney Revolvers

Hallo!

Not sure what you are looking for, but here is a snippet on Whitney's.

Because of the numbers, Whitney Navy revolvers are considered... "secondary" martial pistols.

Whitney had been one of the leading U.S. arms makers for about 60 years before the ACW starting with Whitney's father Eli Sr. famous for his cotton gin. That netted him the start of a long series of contracts, beginning with the 1798 musket contracts. When Sr. died in 1825, his two nephews took over until Jr. came of age in 1842.

Whitney ventured into percussion revolvers in 1847 when Samuel Colt arrived wanting Whitney to produce Colt's contract for a thousand .44 revolvers with Whitney sharing the profits and keeping the special machinery. The deal was run, and ended when over Colt took his business to his newly formed factory at Hartford.

Whitney dabbled in revolvers, tieing in with Fordyce Beals (the 1858 ancestor of the M1861 and M1863 Remington Army and Navy line) "walking beam" revolver in 1855. The government rejected them as unsuitable for military use.

Whitney continued to dabble, buying up surplus Colt revolvers and refinishing them for sale to the government. Several hundred were done, but the Navy rejected them in 1857 and the Army in 1858.

Whitney went back to the "Beals" concept producing a Navy with at first a cylinder with a coat of arms flanked by an eagle and lion, later with a naval battle scene, late with no cylinder engraving. In 1859 a final version was made, and sent to the Navy for testing. Dalhgren had it tested, saying it was fired 84 times and then quit. It was rejected. Whitney sent a proposal to the Ordance Department in 1860 for more, but no requisitions were made.

With the scramble to find arms with the looming War, in 1860 Governor Hicks of MD placed an order for 1,000 of the Whitney Navy's. The state of VA also bought some Whitney's. Rhode Island in April of 1861 bought 150. In 1862, Ohio bought 150, later a thousand. In 1863 NJ got 920 but sold 792 to the Ordnance Department.

By February 1862, the Ordnance Department had bought on the open market 1794 from Justice of Philadelpia, 10 from Dickson & Gilmore, 310 from Palmer & Batchelder, and 540 from Schuyler, Hartley & Graham.

The Ordnance Department changed its mind, and gave a contract to Whitney in June of 1862 for 1,000. And a second contract for 6,000.

Sources vary a bit on the numbers. Rough numbers are just over 14,000, with jus tunder 4,000 open market purchases.

By June of 1863, 19 Union regiments were listing Whitney's:

1st CO...260
4th IL....14
7th IL....56
11th IL..62
15th IL..61
7th KS..34
9th KS..428
2nd KY..13
1st MN..463
3rd NY..140
16th NY.63
1st OH...5
2nd OH..1
7th OH...189
1st TN....85
5th TN...173
2nd WI..78
36th Il Mounted Inf..52
Ringgold Battalion...954

Partially equipped but no numbers:

2nd CO
3rd CO
2nd MN
3rd NJ
Ohio Union Light Guard
5th PA
21st PA
22nd PA
6th U.S. Regular

As Colt and Remington revolvers started up in production, and dominance, some Whitneys went into arsenal or depot storage. As of December 31, 1862 535 were in strorage- 256 at NY Arsenal and 234 at TN Arsenal. By the end of 1863, 341 were in storage at forts Heckman, NC (9), Fort Snelling (318), and Riley (14).

Anyways Whitney's were not popular, in spite of the company's long history and long arm reputation. Two officers of the 1st Colorado wrote that every part except the barrel was "subject to breakage" making the revolver unsuitable for cavalry use.

After a rough start, the Navy came around, and between February 1863 and March 1865, placed 35 orders. Despite of the Army having a poor assessment of them, the Navy stopped orders for Colt Navy's in September 1862 and for the rest of the War ordered only Whitney and Remington's (6,276 from Whitney, 5960 from Remington).

In 1865 the Ordnance Department allowed enlisted men to take home their revolvers after having the depreciated value deducted from their pay amounts. 115 Whitney's were claimed.
Over the next 30 years, the Ordnance Department sold over Whitney's in inventory for 23 cents to $5.05 each. When Bannerman purchased nearly 30,000 "surplus' revolvers in June of 1901, he got 172 Whitney's at 12.65 cents each.

I lost track. One of the Italian companies made a limited production of the Whiteny in the 1970's. Dixie was still selling "kits" in th 1980's. I sold mine IIRC, last year.
About 10 years ago or so, one of the Italian companies (IIRC, Pietta?) dusted off the old repro Whitney machinery and rereleased the repro.

Curt

[Indianabugles]

Re: Witney Revolvers

Palmeto is the name of the company making them at £148/$229 brand spanking new, which is what you would expect to get a 2nd hand in "reasonable condition" over here. They are in .36 only and have received a good review in Gun Mart, while not a re-enactor magazine it is certainly worth checking as if they say a gun does/does not perform well under live fire conditions it can be accepted it will do so under blank conditions.
Thanx Curt that is exactly what I needed to know and fleshes out quite a lot of what I had come across in dribs and drabs, but unsupported.
Also interesting that you mention Dahlgren as I have just finished reading A Quest for Glory (Robert J. Schneller Jn) mention his time at the ordnance yard and his reformation, improvement and efficient handling of the same.
The revolver that facinates me the most but can only be procured in original is the Savage. (20.000)
I will consider this now as it throws more clarity for now but will stick with the Colts, Dragoon and Navy as the NUG's where possible me thinks.

[faabala]

Re: Witney Revolvers

Here is an old thread with one for sale. Maybe the former owner could provide insight.

http://www.authentic-campaigner.com/forum/showthread.php?21318-FS-Replica-.36-caliber-Whitney-revolver

[Union Navy]

Re: Witney Revolvers

An additional concern I have heard about (both in modern and period communications) is that the clearance between they cylinder and frame was insufficient, allowing caps to fall off the cones (or just stick up a little) and get stuck between frame and cylinder, locking things up.

[Indianabugles]

Re: Witney Revolvers

Good call Bob, I had not considered that. I had a similar problem with my cold when I replaced the nipples and had to file a mm or so off and screw them in tight. Will check when I ask to see as it did cause the mechanism to jam and reqired hand to cylinder assistance.
Thread (Former) and pics are handy and the ones for sale are similar, bit a little blacker. Former owner never fired his.
Wonder if Curt ever fired his or encounted any major problems?
So far I have had to deal with...
Weak mainspring in Remington that caused primers to jam in the hammer jaws..easily fixed.
Cold Navy Brass frame freezing when the brass frame contracted under very cold conditions and nipped the cylinder tight...20 mins on a radiator.
Colt Dragoon breaking a hand spring...Pain in the backside as the new one had to be "Adjusted" to fit.

[Marine Mike]

Re: Witney Revolvers

Do a google on Larsen E. Pettifogger. He put together about a half-dozen articles about tuning cap and ball resolvers for the SASS. They're in Adobe format. These cover full frame and open top. Though your particular pistol might not be mentioned, the concepts presented may be applicable to your problem child

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Witney Revolvers

Hallo!

"Wonder if Curt ever fired his or encounted any major problems?"

Alas, no. Finished ones were not available when I bought the "kit" from Dixie. It sat on a shelf as an Unfinished Project for 20-some years until I sold it last year.

Over the years, there have been scattered discussions about the thickness or gauge of copper on modern percussion caps being thinner than Period caps resulting in more fragmentation. And, more fragmented ieces to fall in the works and jam the mechanism. While I have never seen any published or shared analysis on surviving Period caps versus Modern ones... one would expect to find Period accounts or complaints of cap fragments jamming revolvers.
Dahlgren in his initial Whitney trial in June of 1859 said that the hammer failed to "stand" at full cock in several instances but as far as I remember he did to elaborate on the freezing of the action after 84 shots and it could have been likely fouling. Hard to say, without having his letter.

I would repeat being careful of wrong sized cones/nipples and cap combinations so as not to create "chain fires."

Curt