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The Great Confederate Bayonet Debate

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  • #16
    Re: The Great Confederate Bayonet Debate

    Neill has one.



    Neill Maultsby. Winter 1864
    1st Sgt, Co. H, 51 NC, Columbus Light Infantry.

    H. Mintz collection, not for reproduction.

    B. G. Beall (Long Gone)

    Comment


    • #17
      Re: The Great Confederate Bayonet Debate

      Originally posted by Mississippian View Post
      Warren,

      It does, but I think more stringent federal inspections and better quality scabbards on the Northern side made it less a problem than on the Confederate side.
      Oh, I'm quite sure. Funny though how the two subjects mesh.
      Warren Dickinson


      Currently a History Hippy at South Union Shaker Village
      Member of the original Pickett's Mill Interpretive Volunteer Staff & Co. D, 17th Ky Vol. Inf
      Former Mudsill
      Co-Creator of the States Rights Guard in '92

      Comment


      • #18
        Re: The Great Confederate Bayonet Debate

        Jackson's Brigade, Army of Tennessee: April & July 1863

        8th Mississippi Infantry:

        April:
        425 arms, 376 Bayonets: 88%
        July:
        445 arms, 331 Bayonets: 74%

        5th Mississippi Infantry:

        April:
        249 arms, 237 bayonets: 95%
        July:
        307 arms, 202 bayonets: 66%

        5th Georgia Infantry:

        April:
        422 arms, 380 bayonets: 90%
        July:
        371 arms, 306 bayonets: 82%

        2nd Battalion, Georgia Sharpshooters:

        April:
        297 arms, 256 bayonets: 86%
        July:
        238 arms, 184 bayonets: 77%

        37th Tennessee Infantry:

        April:
        420 arms, 134 bayonets: 32%

        1st Confederate (Georgia) Infantry Battalion:

        July:
        308 arms, 315 bayonets: 100%+

        Will MacDonald

        Comment


        • #19
          Re: The Great Confederate Bayonet Debate

          Some more,

          Respectfully found here: http://www.blueandgraymarching.com/a...ntal-ordn.html

          52nd Georgia Infantry, Army of Tennessee

          1st Qtr 1864:
          229 arms, 225 bayonets: 92% usage

          2nd Qtr 1864:
          166 arms, 117 bayonets: 70%

          10th Tennessee Infantry, Army of Tennessee

          3rd Qtr 1863:
          52 arms, 2 bayonets: 3%

          4th Qtr 1863:
          98 arms, 89 bayonets: 91%

          10th Mississippi Infantry, Army of Tennessee

          3rd Qtr 1863:
          230 arms, 114 bayonets: 49%

          4th Qtr 1863:
          192 arms, 73 bayonets: 38%

          49th Virginia Infantry, Army of Northern Virginia

          3rd Qtr 1863:
          203 arms, 163 bayonets: 80%

          4th Qtr 1863:
          201 arms, 147 bayonets: 73%

          2nd South Carolina Infantry, Army of Northern Virginia/Army of Tenneesee

          3rd Qtr 1863:
          201 arms, 84 bayonets: 42%

          4th Qtr 1863:
          174 arms, 59 bayonets: 34%

          23rd North Carolina Infantry, Army of Northern Virginia

          2nd Qtr 1863:
          318 arms, 235 bayonets: 74%

          3rd Qtr 1863:
          153 arms, 65 bayonets: 42%


          Will MacDonald

          Comment


          • #20
            Re: The Great Confederate Bayonet Debate

            Originally posted by Curt Schmidt View Post
            Hallo!

            With the usual caveat aobut unit, time, and place...

            I agree, Confederates bayonets are over-represented in reenacting. Much like slings.

            And although apples and oranges, over on the Federal side... I am reminded of the March 1863 court martial of Colonel Hiram Berdan who in 1862 purpsoely "sabotaged" bayonets for his Sharpshooters' Sharps rifles so that out of 426 rifles there were only 247 bayonets. (248 additional ones were ordered and arrived in June of 1863 in time for Gettysburg.)

            Adn yes, reproduction ramrods are poorly made their being sleeved and brazed rather than pinned and brazed. So, yes for reenacting one will likely eventually bend or snap one of when stacking using the ramrod method. Historically, that was less of an issue.

            Curt



            Agreed. In just about all pictures I've seen of Conf. Soldiers with their rifles I have probably at most only seen one sling ever...

            Comment


            • #21
              Re: The Great Confederate Bayonet Debate

              Elijah, I've certainly seen more than just one sling. Especially in the pictures of Georgia soldiers armed with Enfields. But that gets into the unit/time/place caveat. In researching the 6th Mississippi over the past year for our Shiloh adjunct, I could only document one item as being issued in near-unit-wide numbers. Guess what it was? Gun slings.

              In general, I believe you are correct that Confederates, in general, for most of the war, probably were more likely than not to be without slings. Looking around, most of my pards are sling-less, but we all generally carry bayonets (many times, we're told to). Maybe that could change?
              Joe Knight

              Armory Guards
              Yocona Rip Raps
              "Semper Tyrannis."

              Comment


              • #22
                Re: The Great Confederate Bayonet Debate

                Four more regiments, 2 Georgia, 2 Louisiana......

                56th Georgia Infantry, Army of Tennessee

                4th Qtr, 1863:
                397 Arms, 207 Bayonets: 52% usage

                1st Qtr 1864:
                425 arms, 218 bayonets: 51%

                59th Georgia Infantry, Army of Northern Virginia

                1st Qtr 1864:
                253 arms, 37 bayonets: 17%

                2nd Qtr 1864:
                282 arms, 63 bayonets: 22%

                14th Louisiana Infantry, Army of Northern Virginia

                August 15th 1863
                115 arms, 91 bayonets 79%

                August 26th 1863
                141 arms, 81 bayonets: 57%

                Sept. 16th 1863
                150 arms, 87 bayonets: 58%

                15th Louisiana Infantry, Army of Northern Virginia

                August 25th 1863
                120 arms, 77 bayonets: 64%

                Will MacDonald

                Comment


                • #23
                  Re: The Great Confederate Bayonet Debate

                  Here is a picture of a dead Confederate soldier in trenches at Petersburg and you can see on his musket there is a cotton musket sling. I know of a contract from Richmond arsenal in March of 1864 for 20,000 musket slings and 20,000 canteen slings to be made from cotton. If musket slings were not considered important why are they still issuing contracts for them?

                  David Jarnagin
                  Click image for larger version

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                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Re: The Great Confederate Bayonet Debate

                    David,
                    I don't think anyone here is truly saying they aren't important, but it's a matter of time, place, and circumstances. Richmond at that time may have had the resources to produce them, other arsenals perhaps not so much. I know long ago, some pards and I noted that unlike the modern military, there was no command to "sling arms" in the manuals we were looking at. That, combined with the images available to us of those we were trying to portray at the time caused us to start leaving the musket sling at home for many events.
                    Warren Dickinson


                    Currently a History Hippy at South Union Shaker Village
                    Member of the original Pickett's Mill Interpretive Volunteer Staff & Co. D, 17th Ky Vol. Inf
                    Former Mudsill
                    Co-Creator of the States Rights Guard in '92

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Re: The Great Confederate Bayonet Debate

                      Howdy folks. This is a Moderator reminder to stay on topic. Let's keep focused on bayonets and not slings.

                      Thanks!


                      And to add to the topic, here are musket numbers from the 10th Texas Infantry from the CSR as posted by Scott McKay on the old 10th Texas website:

                      Receipt Marietta, Ga June 30, 1864:
                      "Received June 10th, 1864, of Col. R. Q. Mills Comdg 10th Texas Regt
                      The following Ord. & Ord. Stores

                      202 Aust. Rifles Cal. 54
                      197 Bayonets

                      Marietta,Ga.
                      June 30th 1864

                      G B Jewell
                      Ord Off Granbury's Brig"


                      Also, check the other ordannce records starting from November 1861. http://web.archive.org/web/200502271...belt/Ordnance/

                      Enjoy.
                      Last edited by Coatsy; 06-29-2012, 10:21 AM. Reason: Adding something to the discussion.
                      Herb Coats
                      Armory Guards &
                      WIG

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Re: The Great Confederate Bayonet Debate

                        Here's another snippet, FWIW, from John Gould's "History of the First, Tenth, Twenty-Ninth Maine" (p. 468):

                        "Another document picked up after the battle of Cedar Creek, is a 'report of the arms, &c. of the 57th N.C. Vols. for the week ending Sept. 6, 1864.' It shows in 'hands of the men' 168 muskets, 2 bayonets, 160 cartridge boxes, 127 cart. box belts, 160 waist belts, 150 haversacks and 18 knapsacks, and an average of 42 rounds per man."

                        I find this interesting on several levels, not least in showing that while these soldiers might have thrown away (or not have been issued) bayonets, they still held on to paper and ink sufficient to keep up the weekly ordnance returns. Also, note that in the Confederate service haversacks and knapsacks were at this time classified as Ordnance, not "camp and garrison equipage" as in the US army (and the CS initially).

                        On the question of stacking with ramrods, it's easy enough once you get used to it, but you do have to be careful. That said, I've had ramrods seriously damaged several times, each time while stacking with the bayonet. The problem seems to come from a mix of '61 Springfields with 42's or Enfields and, of course, an inexperienced practitioner in the front number two position.
                        Michael A. Schaffner

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Re: The Great Confederate Bayonet Debate

                          Yeah the C.S. did classify Knapsacks, Haversacks, and Canteens as Ordnance gear from very early in the war up until the end.

                          Today we have a mix, a couple of ANV units, and a couple of AoT units......

                          3rd & 5th Confederate Infantry, Army of Tennessee

                          3rd Qtr 1863:
                          335 arms: 176 bayonets: 53% usage

                          4th Qtr 1863:
                          254 arms, 111 bayonets: 44%

                          2nd Louisiana Infantry, Army of Northern Virginia

                          August 26th 1863:
                          159 arms, 83 bayonets: 52%

                          4th Louisiana Infantry Battalion, Army of Tennessee

                          July 1st 1864:
                          85 arms, 45 bayonets: 53%

                          11th Mississippi Infantry, Army of Northern Virginia

                          3rd Qtr 1863:
                          250 arms, 137 bayonets: 55%

                          4th Qrt 1863:
                          253 arms, 89 bayonets: 35%

                          Will MacDonald

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Re: The Great Confederate Bayonet Debate

                            Adding to the list, all these come from Lon Webster's excellent "Entrepot" Appendix 1

                            Polks Corps, Army of Mississippi, July 5th 1862: 7,506 arms, 6,808 bayonets: 91% bayonet usage

                            Hardee's Division, Army of Mississippi, August 23rd 1862: 5,811 arms, 5,239 bayonets: 90%

                            Cummings (Clayton's) Alabama Brigade, Army of Tennessee, April 30th 1863:

                            18th Alabama Infantry: 600 arms, 580 bayonets: 97%
                            36th Alabama Infantry: 910 arms, 772 bayonets: 85%
                            38th Alabama Infantry: 752 arms, 752 bayonets: 100%
                            9th Alabama Infantry Batt: 655 arms, 249 bayonets: 38%

                            4th Tennessee Infantry, Army of Tennessee, April 1863: 339 arms, 228 bayonets: 67%


                            The numbers for Cummings Brigade are interesting, when this report was made the Brigade had just been transferred to the Army of Tennessee from the Mobile garrision, so this would explain why the brigade was so well equipped with bayonets.

                            Will MacDonald

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