The Great Confederate Bayonet Debate

[Vuhginyuh]

Re: The Great Confederate Bayonet Debate

Neill has one.



Neill Maultsby. Winter 1864
1st Sgt, Co. H, 51 NC, Columbus Light Infantry.

H. Mintz collection, not for reproduction.

[dixieflyer]

Re: The Great Confederate Bayonet Debate

Warren,

It does, but I think more stringent federal inspections and better quality scabbards on the Northern side made it less a problem than on the Confederate side.

Oh, I'm quite sure. Funny though how the two subjects mesh.

[Mississippian]

Re: The Great Confederate Bayonet Debate

Jackson's Brigade, Army of Tennessee: April & July 1863

8th Mississippi Infantry:

April:
425 arms, 376 Bayonets: 88%
July:
445 arms, 331 Bayonets: 74%

5th Mississippi Infantry:

April:
249 arms, 237 bayonets: 95%
July:
307 arms, 202 bayonets: 66%

5th Georgia Infantry:

April:
422 arms, 380 bayonets: 90%
July:
371 arms, 306 bayonets: 82%

2nd Battalion, Georgia Sharpshooters:

April:
297 arms, 256 bayonets: 86%
July:
238 arms, 184 bayonets: 77%

37th Tennessee Infantry:

April:
420 arms, 134 bayonets: 32%

1st Confederate (Georgia) Infantry Battalion:

July:
308 arms, 315 bayonets: 100%+

Will MacDonald

[Mississippian]

Re: The Great Confederate Bayonet Debate

Some more,

Respectfully found here: http://www.blueandgraymarching.com/a...ntal-ordn.html

52nd Georgia Infantry, Army of Tennessee

1st Qtr 1864:
229 arms, 225 bayonets: 92% usage

2nd Qtr 1864:
166 arms, 117 bayonets: 70%

10th Tennessee Infantry, Army of Tennessee

3rd Qtr 1863:
52 arms, 2 bayonets: 3%

4th Qtr 1863:
98 arms, 89 bayonets: 91%

10th Mississippi Infantry, Army of Tennessee

3rd Qtr 1863:
230 arms, 114 bayonets: 49%

4th Qtr 1863:
192 arms, 73 bayonets: 38%

49th Virginia Infantry, Army of Northern Virginia

3rd Qtr 1863:
203 arms, 163 bayonets: 80%

4th Qtr 1863:
201 arms, 147 bayonets: 73%

2nd South Carolina Infantry, Army of Northern Virginia/Army of Tenneesee

3rd Qtr 1863:
201 arms, 84 bayonets: 42%

4th Qtr 1863:
174 arms, 59 bayonets: 34%

23rd North Carolina Infantry, Army of Northern Virginia

2nd Qtr 1863:
318 arms, 235 bayonets: 74%

3rd Qtr 1863:
153 arms, 65 bayonets: 42%


Will MacDonald

[Guest]

Re: The Great Confederate Bayonet Debate

Hallo!

With the usual caveat aobut unit, time, and place...

I agree, Confederates bayonets are over-represented in reenacting. Much like slings.

And although apples and oranges, over on the Federal side... I am reminded of the March 1863 court martial of Colonel Hiram Berdan who in 1862 purpsoely "sabotaged" bayonets for his Sharpshooters' Sharps rifles so that out of 426 rifles there were only 247 bayonets. (248 additional ones were ordered and arrived in June of 1863 in time for Gettysburg.)

Adn yes, reproduction ramrods are poorly made their being sleeved and brazed rather than pinned and brazed. So, yes for reenacting one will likely eventually bend or snap one of when stacking using the ramrod method. Historically, that was less of an issue.

Curt

Agreed. In just about all pictures I've seen of Conf. Soldiers with their rifles I have probably at most only seen one sling ever...

[GenuineInformation]

Re: The Great Confederate Bayonet Debate

Elijah, I've certainly seen more than just one sling. Especially in the pictures of Georgia soldiers armed with Enfields. But that gets into the unit/time/place caveat. In researching the 6th Mississippi over the past year for our Shiloh adjunct, I could only document one item as being issued in near-unit-wide numbers. Guess what it was? Gun slings.

In general, I believe you are correct that Confederates, in general, for most of the war, probably were more likely than not to be without slings. Looking around, most of my pards are sling-less, but we all generally carry bayonets (many times, we're told to). Maybe that could change?

[Mississippian]

Re: The Great Confederate Bayonet Debate

Four more regiments, 2 Georgia, 2 Louisiana......

56th Georgia Infantry, Army of Tennessee

4th Qtr, 1863:
397 Arms, 207 Bayonets: 52% usage

1st Qtr 1864:
425 arms, 218 bayonets: 51%

59th Georgia Infantry, Army of Northern Virginia

1st Qtr 1864:
253 arms, 37 bayonets: 17%

2nd Qtr 1864:
282 arms, 63 bayonets: 22%

14th Louisiana Infantry, Army of Northern Virginia

August 15th 1863
115 arms, 91 bayonets 79%

August 26th 1863
141 arms, 81 bayonets: 57%

Sept. 16th 1863
150 arms, 87 bayonets: 58%

15th Louisiana Infantry, Army of Northern Virginia

August 25th 1863
120 arms, 77 bayonets: 64%

Will MacDonald

[David Jarnagin]

Re: The Great Confederate Bayonet Debate

Here is a picture of a dead Confederate soldier in trenches at Petersburg and you can see on his musket there is a cotton musket sling. I know of a contract from Richmond arsenal in March of 1864 for 20,000 musket slings and 20,000 canteen slings to be made from cotton. If musket slings were not considered important why are they still issuing contracts for them?

David Jarnagin

[dixieflyer]

Re: The Great Confederate Bayonet Debate

David,
I don't think anyone here is truly saying they aren't important, but it's a matter of time, place, and circumstances. Richmond at that time may have had the resources to produce them, other arsenals perhaps not so much. I know long ago, some pards and I noted that unlike the modern military, there was no command to "sling arms" in the manuals we were looking at. That, combined with the images available to us of those we were trying to portray at the time caused us to start leaving the musket sling at home for many events.

[Coatsy]

Re: The Great Confederate Bayonet Debate

Howdy folks. This is a Moderator reminder to stay on topic. Let's keep focused on bayonets and not slings.

Thanks!

And to add to the topic, here are musket numbers from the 10th Texas Infantry from the CSR as posted by Scott McKay on the old 10th Texas website:

Receipt Marietta, Ga June 30, 1864:
"Received June 10th, 1864, of Col. R. Q. Mills Comdg 10th Texas Regt
The following Ord. & Ord. Stores

202 Aust. Rifles Cal. 54
197 Bayonets

Marietta,Ga.
June 30th 1864

G B Jewell
Ord Off Granbury's Brig"

http://web.archive.org/web/20050118142312/http://members.aol.com/cbbelt/Ordnance/ord18.htm

Also, check the other ordannce records starting from November 1861. http://web.archive.org/web/200502271...belt/Ordnance/

Enjoy.

[Pvt Schnapps]

Re: The Great Confederate Bayonet Debate

Here's another snippet, FWIW, from John Gould's "History of the First, Tenth, Twenty-Ninth Maine" (p. 468):

"Another document picked up after the battle of Cedar Creek, is a 'report of the arms, &c. of the 57th N.C. Vols. for the week ending Sept. 6, 1864.' It shows in 'hands of the men' 168 muskets, 2 bayonets, 160 cartridge boxes, 127 cart. box belts, 160 waist belts, 150 haversacks and 18 knapsacks, and an average of 42 rounds per man."

I find this interesting on several levels, not least in showing that while these soldiers might have thrown away (or not have been issued) bayonets, they still held on to paper and ink sufficient to keep up the weekly ordnance returns. Also, note that in the Confederate service haversacks and knapsacks were at this time classified as Ordnance, not "camp and garrison equipage" as in the US army (and the CS initially).

On the question of stacking with ramrods, it's easy enough once you get used to it, but you do have to be careful. That said, I've had ramrods seriously damaged several times, each time while stacking with the bayonet. The problem seems to come from a mix of '61 Springfields with 42's or Enfields and, of course, an inexperienced practitioner in the front number two position.

[Mississippian]

Re: The Great Confederate Bayonet Debate

Yeah the C.S. did classify Knapsacks, Haversacks, and Canteens as Ordnance gear from very early in the war up until the end.

Today we have a mix, a couple of ANV units, and a couple of AoT units......

3rd & 5th Confederate Infantry, Army of Tennessee

3rd Qtr 1863:
335 arms: 176 bayonets: 53% usage

4th Qtr 1863:
254 arms, 111 bayonets: 44%

2nd Louisiana Infantry, Army of Northern Virginia

August 26th 1863:
159 arms, 83 bayonets: 52%

4th Louisiana Infantry Battalion, Army of Tennessee

July 1st 1864:
85 arms, 45 bayonets: 53%

11th Mississippi Infantry, Army of Northern Virginia

3rd Qtr 1863:
250 arms, 137 bayonets: 55%

4th Qrt 1863:
253 arms, 89 bayonets: 35%

Will MacDonald

[Mississippian]

Re: The Great Confederate Bayonet Debate

Adding to the list, all these come from Lon Webster's excellent "Entrepot" Appendix 1

Polks Corps, Army of Mississippi, July 5th 1862: 7,506 arms, 6,808 bayonets: 91% bayonet usage

Hardee's Division, Army of Mississippi, August 23rd 1862: 5,811 arms, 5,239 bayonets: 90%

Cummings (Clayton's) Alabama Brigade, Army of Tennessee, April 30th 1863:

18th Alabama Infantry: 600 arms, 580 bayonets: 97%
36th Alabama Infantry: 910 arms, 772 bayonets: 85%
38th Alabama Infantry: 752 arms, 752 bayonets: 100%
9th Alabama Infantry Batt: 655 arms, 249 bayonets: 38%

4th Tennessee Infantry, Army of Tennessee, April 1863: 339 arms, 228 bayonets: 67%


The numbers for Cummings Brigade are interesting, when this report was made the Brigade had just been transferred to the Army of Tennessee from the Mobile garrision, so this would explain why the brigade was so well equipped with bayonets.

Will MacDonald