picture of the 3rd Indiana Cavalry from Petersburg

[James A. Page]

Re: picture of the 3rd Indiana Cavalry from Petersburg

I think a closer examination of the first image will show that this Trooper is wearing a two-piece US belt buckle, not a CS two-piece. Nice image.

[Ken Knopp]

Re: picture of the 3rd Indiana Cavalry from Petersburg

In reply to Mark Choate.....

The attached is a photo of Cpl Jacob Gantz, 4th Iowa Cav. From Gantz's diary (1863-1865) I find that he had his photo taken "at least" three times during the war. For certain, once at Helena Ark in early 1863 and another time in Memphis in Jan. 1865- perhaps more at other times in the war. From this photo it appears Gantz is adorned with, what appears to be, a new set of clothes and accoutrements. Perhaps, this is one of his earlier compositions? At any rate, not likely the coat nor condition of what one would expect to find on him in Georgia at the end of Wilson's Raid. Since we do not know when this was taken once can only speculate on its time period and thus its relevance to our usage for Westville. In short, it is curious but of little real value.

Ken R Knopp

[Mark Choate]

Re: picture of the 3rd Indiana Cavalry from Petersburg

Thank you, Ken.

As you said and as the photo tends to suggest, everything here looks "squeaky clean" and new. I would say that by the end of the war and as reconstruction began to descend upon the south, his appearance was probably considerably different.

thanks for posting this.

Mark

[GAR]

Re: picture of the 3rd Indiana Cavalry from Petersburg

Ken, I disagree as I see much value in that picture.
Mark, we know Ken's picture is a studio portrait, and I'm pretty sure more often than not, new uniforms were worn or older uniforms were cleaned and pressed, and sabers and boots were polished for such an important occasion. Having a portrait made wasn't exactly cheap, and most wanted to look their best as this image is what their family would have to remember them by, should they fall.
By the faint, just visible sleeve trim, it looks to me that Gantz is wearing a msj, but the collar is almost completely obscured by his beard. My eyes may be playing tricks, but I can almost make out the vertical trim next to the buttons. Also it is interesting to note that he holds what appears to be a Hardee hat, while a forage cap is also present on the table. If it's not a studio prop, then is it possible that Gantz brought both along and then decided on wearing neither? If a trooper owned both a hat and a cap, then it was very likely this was taken early in the war, before one or the other was lost or damaged. That, along with the fact that Gantz doesn't appear to have achieved his corporal rank yet, unless the folds in his sleeves are concealing stripes.

[GAR]

Re: picture of the 3rd Indiana Cavalry from Petersburg

Does anyone else think it odd that the presumably yellow tape is light colored in the image whereas yellow usually shows up dark and hard to see in period photographic emulsions?

Paul, in the second picture, did you notice the difference in the shades between the trouser stripe and the sleeve trim? They are very close to each other for a comparison.

David- great photo, thanks for sharing it.
Since it appears to be a hodge podge of uniform styles, especially buckles, perhaps the quartermaster was running low and issued whatever he could scrounge up just to try and fill the requisition order? If there were not enough saber knots to go around, I wonder if those odd saber knots are leather strings fashioned by the troopers to perform the same function?

Fun stuff.

[CompanyWag]

Re: picture of the 3rd Indiana Cavalry from Petersburg

Paul, in the second picture, did you notice the difference in the shades between the trouser stripe and the sleeve trim? They are very close to each other for a comparison.

Indeed. That is significant because, strictly speaking, infantry is the only branch where trouser stripes are a different shade than than jacket trim. Perhaps the odd jackets are merely a different shade of yellow if not a different color altogether.

[GAR]

Re: picture of the 3rd Indiana Cavalry from Petersburg

Sorry, but I forgot to mention the differing attentions given to regulations. The captain has non regulation sleeve braid and I'm really beginning to think it was far more common in the north than we suspect. Yet regulations regarding trousers not being tucked into the boots certainly seems to be enforced, as I don't detect any wrinkles present from pulling them out of the boots just for the picture. However, it doesn't appear that all top buttons on the blouses are fastened, including the captain's, which I thought to be a "more important" regulation, as not doing so was viewed as being out of uniform. I believe the regulation is only specific in regards to the top button, which is why we see so many images of soldiers using the loophole in the wording and fastening only the top one on warmer days.

[GAR]

Re: picture of the 3rd Indiana Cavalry from Petersburg

Oops, my bad. Upon a much closer look, the captain is the only one that doesn't appear to have his top button fastened. Privilege of rank, I suppose. It's the visible shirt buttons above the collars of some of the others that made me think that.

But I did notice something else that I find really interesting, that no one has yet mentioned.

How many soldiers can you count that are wearing pinky rings on their left hands? Are they the rings of their wives and sweethearts? They sure don't look like forgetaboutit rings, in fact, one looks very dainty.

Now, there is something I haven't noticed in reenactments before, although I'm sure there might be some who do it. Very interesting picture.

[David Jarnagin]

Re: picture of the 3rd Indiana Cavalry from Petersburg

Out of the all the troopers in the photos I have found 3 with snaps to attach the belt to the sword. These are found in the 2nd and 3rd pictures. The person setting just the right of the officer the snap is very clearly shown; this is found in picture three.

David Jarnagin

[GAR]

Re: picture of the 3rd Indiana Cavalry from Petersburg

Rob, I was a student and a avid collector many years ago, but without seeing the blade, it's hard to be certain. From the round shape of the pommel cap and the way it flows into the base of the knuckle guard branches, I think the saber could be a British 1821-22 Light Cavalry or possibly a M1833 US Dragoon. Both had straighter blades than our issued sabers and had three branch baskets with the curled thumb piece. However, both of those sabers are usually wire wrapped 7 times, while the one in this picture looks to have been wrapped as many as 21 times.

Possibly the grip was re-wrapped, which was not unusual as the wire strands were most often the first part to wear out and break. Officer grips were often shark skin instead of leather, but I can't tell from this picture. I hope this helps.

Man, I could stare at this picture all day. Can anyone tell what kind of sabre the officer is carrying? It has a different basket shape then the 1860/1840 sabre and looks like the metal starts to go down the back of the handle below the cap and not just a plain cap like the '60/'40 sabre. Also it has the little curve piece where the issue sabre is just flat piece at the hilt. I wish I knew my saber parts names better, but just check out the basket and you can see. Also looks a little straighter in the blade then the curve of the US sabres. Is it French or British import? Also, the officer is maybe wearing shoes where all the troopers are in boots. You can see the laces just below his pants. So many things to check out.

[Ian M.]

Re: picture of the 3rd Indiana Cavalry from Petersburg

Picked up this thread late but great picture. By the way, it looks like most or all are wearing foot trowsers, not mounted.

[mregensb]

Re: picture of the 3rd Indiana Cavalry from Petersburg

Note the footwear. I just wonder if those are the ankle boots. None are have trousers tucked into the boots.

[mregensb]

Re: picture of the 3rd Indiana Cavalry from Petersburg

Do we know for sure if this is the Army of the Potomac 3rd Indiana or the Western Theater 3rd Indiana with the Army of the Ohio?

[Pumpkinslinger]

Re: picture of the 3rd Indiana Cavalry from Petersburg

Funny, the full size version of this is the cover photo of "Scourge of War" Gettysburg demo.

[Tom Craig]

Re: picture of the 3rd Indiana Cavalry from Petersburg

Mark,
I'm virtually certain it has been ID'd several times as the 3rd IN with the AoP.

Take care,
Tom Craig
1st Maine Cavalry