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  • Cap Boxes Worn on the Wearer's left?

    Gents,

    See the e-mail trail below and link to a pictureattache of the 10th Infantry at Camp Scott during the Utah War (1857-1858). They are armed with M1841 "Mississippi"rifles, M1855 Riflemen's belts, and the saber bayonet. Any thoughs as to why they all wear thier cap boxes on the wrong side? The e-mail trail below should show you how we have come to that conclusion.

    The picture cabn be seen here: http://content.lib.utah.edu/cdm/ref/..._Class/id/8475



    Chuck Mood

    LtColMood@aol.com



    Sent: Wed, Nov 7, 2012 6:32 am
    Subject: Re: Latest Version of Ho for Camp Floyd!


    I also believe that the image was oriented the correct way. Normally, reversed images are in daguerreotypes and ambrotypes. But this image appeared to be an early print, made from a glass negative. That suggested to me that unless the photographer accidentally reversed the negative, it should have been correctly oriented as we originally looked at it. This also fits better with the soldiers carrying their weapon at right shoulder arms. Here is the image again with most of the soldiers and back to its original orientation.

    Studying the fourth figure from the left, I am in agreement that the shadow looks blocky like a rifleman belt buckle and not round as with the U.S. buckle. But it still leaves the mystery as to why they are all wearing their cap pouches on the left. It can't be that they moved them so as to not interfere with pulling the rope; all of the soldiers regardless of which side of the rope they are on pulling the wagon have their pouch on the left. I can understand one soldier being different, but they all do. I will go back and look for some pre-Civil War photographs to see if I can find anyone else who has done this. Interesting mystery...

    Incidentally, the presence of the rifleman belt indicates that these are 10th Infantry soldiers.

    I have not been able to find the original of this image. The original was apparently brought into Utah State Historical Society and copied many years ago. The original was apparently returned to its owner and they did not record who had it. All they had was a very old copy print, which is what I scanned and am sending you. That is as close to the original in sharpness as we can get.


    Sent: Tuesday, November 6, 2012 9:46 PM
    Subject: Re: Latest Version of Ho for Camp Floyd!



    Thanks for flip-flopping this image. Seeing it this way I'm even more confused as now the hammer and lock on the rifle of the 4th guy from the right is on the wrong side of the piece. This is what I now believe. The original orientation is correct, not this flip flopped version. In the original version the lock on the musket is correct. This version also orients the saber bayonet on its proper side ( to the wearers right). I now believe that it is the cap box that is on the incorrect side (which is doable, vice the bayonet being on the wrong side with a bayonet frog that was sewn to the belt.) Also, I believe what I thought to be the front of the jacket orienting which side of the jacket covers the other when buttoned was a scratch in the negative. On closer observation it was correct at the bottom of the jacket but switched sides as it approached the top of the jacket. Thoughts?



    Sent: Tue, Nov 6, 2012 7:54 pm
    Subject: Re: Latest Version of Ho for Camp Floyd!


    Here is the image flipped, with some more of the soldiers in it. You are right -- bayonets are in the "wrong" place.







    I think you are right about the bayonets being on the wrong side.
    I enlarged sections of the original photo and studied it in sections
    It's clear with other soldiers that they all have M1841's, and cartridge
    boxes on their belts. The bayonet on the wrong side doesn't really
    bother me. They are on fatique duty collecting wood. They have no
    horses, so they have to pull the wagon. (Gee, I wonder were their
    horses went) They could have moved things around on their belt
    to fit the situation. On CW belts, cap boxes and bayonet scabbards
    did not fit over the buckle. One had to remove the buckle to put
    those items on. I believe the Rifleman's buckle was removable as
    well, so the cap box could be placed anywere.

    I attached another copy of the Camp Scott, Wood Detail Photo.

    On Tue, 6 Nov 2012 15:13:24 -0500 (EST)
    ltcolmood@aol.com wrote:
    >
    >
    >
    > > (1) I believe trooper #4 is carrying a M1841 (AKA Mississippi) rifle. I
    > base this on what I believe to be a "brass patch box" near the rifle's butt.
    > The shape of the reflection is dead on for a M1841 patch box, and I do not
    > see a Maynard priming system on the lock plate which would rule out a M1855
    > rifle.
    >
    > (2) What does disturb me about this picture is that I believe the saber
    > bayonets are on the wrong side. Let me explain: First of all, the picture is
    > reversed: the cap box always goes on the wearers right and the wearers left
    > side (facing forward, the side of your left hand) of a man's coat is always
    > on top when buttoned. These are reversed in this picture. Second the
    > bayonet scabbard should be on the opposite side of the wearers cap box
    > (wearer's left). It appears that soldiers 1,4 and 6 (from the left) all have
    > saber bayonets on the same side as the cap box (right side). If the saber
    > bayonet frog is sewn to the M1855 Riflemen's belt, then this should be
    > impossible! Thoughts?
    >
    > > Sent: Tue, Nov 6, 2012 11:19 am
    > Subject: Re: Latest Version of Ho for Camp Floyd!
    >
    >
    > > That enlargement is great. I enlarged it even more and agree with your
    > indings Chuck. In fact, I believe two others have a "square-ish" looking
    > elt plate as well. Isn't that a Mississippi that man #4 is carrying?
    > Mike
    > On Mon, 5 Nov 2012 22:27:47 -0500 (EST)
    > ltcolmood@aol.com wrote:
    >
    >
    >
    > Thanks for the enlargement. Your enlarged image makes me feel even stronger
    > that they are wearing riflemen's belts. Two things are in its favor. (1)
    > They are not wearing cartridge box slings, so the cartridge box is attached
    > to the belt, and (2) even stronger evidence, the belt plate in the picture
    > (fourth from the left) has an overall "square-ish" appearance which is what
    > the appearance of the riflemen's belt gives, when assembled, vice an oval
    > with US stamped in it.
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > > Sent: Mon, Nov 5, 2012 7:34 pm
    > Subject: Re: Latest Version of Ho for Camp Floyd!
    >
    >
    > Here is a better scan of these soldiers. They could be wearing a rifleman's
    > belt but it is hard to tell for certain.
    >
    > >
    >
    >
    > Sent: Monday, November 5, 2012 12:33 PM
    > Subject: Re: Latest Version of Ho for Camp Floyd!
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > Gents,
    > There are cap boxes on the riflemen's belts in this photo taken at Camp
    > Scott... They are best seen of the third and fourth soldier from the left.
    >
    > Chuck
    > LtColMood@aol.com
    Charles W. Mood

  • #2
    Re: Cap Boxes Worn on the Wearer's left?

    Hallo!

    Is there a link to a hi-res version?

    (The image is small and in low-res so as not to be able to be enlarged for detail.)

    Curt
    Curt Schmidt
    In gleichem Schritt und Tritt, Curt Schmidt

    -Hard and sharp as flint...secret, and self-contained, and solitary as an oyster.
    -Haplogroup R1b M343 (Subclade R1b1a2 M269)
    -Pointless Folksy Wisdom Mess, Oblio Lodge #1
    -Vastly Ignorant
    -Often incorrect, technically, historically, factually.

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Cap Boxes Worn on the Wearer's left?

      Curt,
      I can send a better picture to you via e-mail and hopefully you can post it. My e-mail address is below. I was not able to attach it as desired, hence I sent the link.

      Chuck Mood
      LtColMood@aol.com
      Charles W. Mood

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Cap Boxes Worn on the Wearer's left?

        Hallo!

        Email sent.

        Curt
        Curt Schmidt
        In gleichem Schritt und Tritt, Curt Schmidt

        -Hard and sharp as flint...secret, and self-contained, and solitary as an oyster.
        -Haplogroup R1b M343 (Subclade R1b1a2 M269)
        -Pointless Folksy Wisdom Mess, Oblio Lodge #1
        -Vastly Ignorant
        -Often incorrect, technically, historically, factually.

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Cap Boxes Worn on the Wearer's left?

          Curt,
          Picture sent...

          Chuck Mood
          LtColMood@aol.com
          Charles W. Mood

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Cap Boxes Worn on the Wearer's left?

            Sorry, I am a bit late tot he party. Here is a link to a larger photo if that is helpful.


            I am wondering if this is a staged photo, that for some reason the photographer wanted both cap box and bayonet in the photo.
            Jake Beckstrand
            CWPT
            Member of The Iron Rooster Mess

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Cap Boxes Worn on the Wearer's left?

              Jake,
              While your suggestion is in the realm of possibility. I don't believe that this is the case. The soldiers are in positions of "action" i.e. walking, bending, etc... If it was staged, I would think that they would be standing still.

              Chuck Mood
              LtColMood@aol.com
              Charles W. Mood

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Cap Boxes Worn on the Wearer's left?

                Is there any possibility that with Hardee's rifle manual calling for the cartridge box on the belt, and the box to be advanced to the front of the body for loading, that the belts are set up for the boxes to be brought around the body via the right hand/right side of the body? This is illustrated in plate 5 of the 1855 manual, page 36.

                http://books.google.com/books?id=xPI...page&q&f=false
                Bob Welch

                The Eagle and The Journal
                My blog, following one Illinois community from Lincoln's election through the end of the Civil War through the articles originally printed in its two newspapers.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Cap Boxes Worn on the Wearer's left?

                  They may be in the position of action...but due to the nature of period photography it is a staged image if only in the fact that they are actually standing still and trying to look like they are in motion. (Notice that both feet of everyone are on the ground?)
                  Whether this may have a bearing on the orientation of accoutrements is another matter.
                  Last edited by CompanyWag; 11-07-2012, 02:34 PM.
                  Paul McKee

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Cap Boxes Worn on the Wearer's left?

                    Hallo!



                    Curt
                    Curt Schmidt
                    In gleichem Schritt und Tritt, Curt Schmidt

                    -Hard and sharp as flint...secret, and self-contained, and solitary as an oyster.
                    -Haplogroup R1b M343 (Subclade R1b1a2 M269)
                    -Pointless Folksy Wisdom Mess, Oblio Lodge #1
                    -Vastly Ignorant
                    -Often incorrect, technically, historically, factually.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Cap Boxes Worn on the Wearer's left?

                      Bob,
                      Your point from Hardee's may be a strong possibility. But the small space a cap box takes up on the belt still allows the cartridge box to be slid over to the front with little inconvienience. The placement of the cap box on the wearer's left, however, causes one to akwardly cross arms while reaching for a cap in the loading process. This is much more of an inconvienience than being able to slide the cartridge box a few more inches to the front.

                      The 10th Infantry was supposed to be a crack outfit being one of the new regiments authorized by Congress in 1855. The fact that they seem to have adopted this bizarre set up of accoutrements astounds me.

                      Chuck Mood
                      LtcolMood@aol.com
                      Charles W. Mood

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Cap Boxes Worn on the Wearer's left?

                        Originally posted by Charles W. Mood View Post
                        The fact that they seem to have adopted this bizarre set up of accoutrements astounds me.
                        Wasn't the U.S. Army in a transition phase at that time, at least equipment-wise? And also, I always thought that in the antebellum years the Army, or armed forces in general, was rather an "unloved step-child" in the U.S., a necessary evil ... And on campaign on the frontier, they would not have looked cookie-cutter either. But please correct me if I am wrong.

                        In any case, thanks for the photo! I only know an antebellum 1850s U.S. military photograph (with privates, not high-ranking officers) with buglers from the Mormon War, so seeing a new one from that time is a welcome find.
                        Bene von Bremen

                        German Mess

                        "I had not previously known one could get on, even in this unsatisfactory fashion, with so little brain."
                        Ambrose Bierce "What I Saw of Shiloh"

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Cap Boxes Worn on the Wearer's left?

                          I don't believe you can use the illustrations in HARDEE'S to gain any insight; they're lifted directly from the French 1845 ORDONNACE DU ROI in which the plates are much crisper (compared to my HARDEE repro). None of the pictures show the cap box and the few that show the cartridge box have it completely in the rear normally so that 'to the front' would seem to mean more to the front rather than as far as it can go to the front. Hardly an exhaustive study but the 1831 ORDONNACE DU ROI has the cartridge box clearly shown, again typically on the right buttock (no cap pouch shown - most likely since they didn't use caps in 31 :). ) CASEY'S and GILHAM'S also seem to omit the cap pouch. From a practical view going to the position of prime and trying to use a cap box on the left of the buckle seems pretty awkward. I vote for photo op modification in the picture.
                          John Duffer
                          Independence Mess
                          MOOCOWS
                          WIG
                          "There lies $1000 and a cow."

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Cap Boxes Worn on the Wearer's left?

                            Additional thought: standard issue cap pouches didn't fit on a rifleman's belt, at least w/o modification, did they?
                            David Fox

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Cap Boxes Worn on the Wearer's left?

                              David,
                              Standard infantrymen of 1851 would have been given the traditional black buff waist belt of 1.5 inch width with a standard leather loop on the left end. But those armed with the M1841 (Mississippi) rifle were given belts of black buff leather 2 inches wide, for the M1841 cartridge box could only be worn on the belt as it only had vertical leather straps for support. The 1855 rifleman's belt was strengthened to support the carrying of the M1855 sword bayonet and was increased to 2.2 to 2.4 inches in width. I do not know if the cap boxes that already fit the 2 inch belt for the M1841 (Mississippi) had straps wide enough to fit on the 2.2 to 2.4 inch riflemen's belt, but the 1857 picture taken at Camp Scott definitely show the 10th Infantry wearing both cap boxes and the riflemen's belt.


                              NOTE: Belt widths were garnered from page 221; American Military Equipage by Frederick Todd

                              Chuck Mood
                              Charles W. Mood

                              Comment

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