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Gents,
See the e-mail trail below and link to a pictureattache of the 10th Infantry at Camp Scott during the Utah War (1857-1858). They are armed with M1841 "Mississippi"rifles, M1855 Riflemen's belts, and the saber bayonet. Any thoughs as to why they all wear thier cap boxes on the wrong side? The e-mail trail below should show you how we have come to that conclusion.
The picture cabn be seen here: http://content.lib.utah.edu/cdm/ref/..._Class/id/8475
Chuck Mood
LtColMood@aol.com
Sent: Wed, Nov 7, 2012 6:32 am
Subject: Re: Latest Version of Ho for Camp Floyd!
I also believe that the image was oriented the correct way. Normally, reversed images are in daguerreotypes and ambrotypes. But this image appeared to be an early print, made from a glass negative. That suggested to me that unless the photographer accidentally reversed the negative, it should have been correctly oriented as we originally looked at it. This also fits better with the soldiers carrying their weapon at right shoulder arms. Here is the image again with most of the soldiers and back to its original orientation.
Studying the fourth figure from the left, I am in agreement that the shadow looks blocky like a rifleman belt buckle and not round as with the U.S. buckle. But it still leaves the mystery as to why they are all wearing their cap pouches on the left. It can't be that they moved them so as to not interfere with pulling the rope; all of the soldiers regardless of which side of the rope they are on pulling the wagon have their pouch on the left. I can understand one soldier being different, but they all do. I will go back and look for some pre-Civil War photographs to see if I can find anyone else who has done this. Interesting mystery...
Incidentally, the presence of the rifleman belt indicates that these are 10th Infantry soldiers.
I have not been able to find the original of this image. The original was apparently brought into Utah State Historical Society and copied many years ago. The original was apparently returned to its owner and they did not record who had it. All they had was a very old copy print, which is what I scanned and am sending you. That is as close to the original in sharpness as we can get.
Sent: Tuesday, November 6, 2012 9:46 PM
Subject: Re: Latest Version of Ho for Camp Floyd!
Thanks for flip-flopping this image. Seeing it this way I'm even more confused as now the hammer and lock on the rifle of the 4th guy from the right is on the wrong side of the piece. This is what I now believe. The original orientation is correct, not this flip flopped version. In the original version the lock on the musket is correct. This version also orients the saber bayonet on its proper side ( to the wearers right). I now believe that it is the cap box that is on the incorrect side (which is doable, vice the bayonet being on the wrong side with a bayonet frog that was sewn to the belt.) Also, I believe what I thought to be the front of the jacket orienting which side of the jacket covers the other when buttoned was a scratch in the negative. On closer observation it was correct at the bottom of the jacket but switched sides as it approached the top of the jacket. Thoughts?
Sent: Tue, Nov 6, 2012 7:54 pm
Subject: Re: Latest Version of Ho for Camp Floyd!
Here is the image flipped, with some more of the soldiers in it. You are right -- bayonets are in the "wrong" place.
I think you are right about the bayonets being on the wrong side.
I enlarged sections of the original photo and studied it in sections
It's clear with other soldiers that they all have M1841's, and cartridge
boxes on their belts. The bayonet on the wrong side doesn't really
bother me. They are on fatique duty collecting wood. They have no
horses, so they have to pull the wagon. (Gee, I wonder were their
horses went) They could have moved things around on their belt
to fit the situation. On CW belts, cap boxes and bayonet scabbards
did not fit over the buckle. One had to remove the buckle to put
those items on. I believe the Rifleman's buckle was removable as
well, so the cap box could be placed anywere.
I attached another copy of the Camp Scott, Wood Detail Photo.
On Tue, 6 Nov 2012 15:13:24 -0500 (EST)
ltcolmood@aol.com wrote:
>
>
>
> > (1) I believe trooper #4 is carrying a M1841 (AKA Mississippi) rifle. I
> base this on what I believe to be a "brass patch box" near the rifle's butt.
> The shape of the reflection is dead on for a M1841 patch box, and I do not
> see a Maynard priming system on the lock plate which would rule out a M1855
> rifle.
>
> (2) What does disturb me about this picture is that I believe the saber
> bayonets are on the wrong side. Let me explain: First of all, the picture is
> reversed: the cap box always goes on the wearers right and the wearers left
> side (facing forward, the side of your left hand) of a man's coat is always
> on top when buttoned. These are reversed in this picture. Second the
> bayonet scabbard should be on the opposite side of the wearers cap box
> (wearer's left). It appears that soldiers 1,4 and 6 (from the left) all have
> saber bayonets on the same side as the cap box (right side). If the saber
> bayonet frog is sewn to the M1855 Riflemen's belt, then this should be
> impossible! Thoughts?
>
> > Sent: Tue, Nov 6, 2012 11:19 am
> Subject: Re: Latest Version of Ho for Camp Floyd!
>
>
> > That enlargement is great. I enlarged it even more and agree with your
> indings Chuck. In fact, I believe two others have a "square-ish" looking
> elt plate as well. Isn't that a Mississippi that man #4 is carrying?
> Mike
> On Mon, 5 Nov 2012 22:27:47 -0500 (EST)
> ltcolmood@aol.com wrote:
>
>
>
> Thanks for the enlargement. Your enlarged image makes me feel even stronger
> that they are wearing riflemen's belts. Two things are in its favor. (1)
> They are not wearing cartridge box slings, so the cartridge box is attached
> to the belt, and (2) even stronger evidence, the belt plate in the picture
> (fourth from the left) has an overall "square-ish" appearance which is what
> the appearance of the riflemen's belt gives, when assembled, vice an oval
> with US stamped in it.
>
>
>
>
> > Sent: Mon, Nov 5, 2012 7:34 pm
> Subject: Re: Latest Version of Ho for Camp Floyd!
>
>
> Here is a better scan of these soldiers. They could be wearing a rifleman's
> belt but it is hard to tell for certain.
>
> >
>
>
> Sent: Monday, November 5, 2012 12:33 PM
> Subject: Re: Latest Version of Ho for Camp Floyd!
>
>
>
>
> Gents,
> There are cap boxes on the riflemen's belts in this photo taken at Camp
> Scott... They are best seen of the third and fourth soldier from the left.
>
> Chuck
> LtColMood@aol.com
See the e-mail trail below and link to a pictureattache of the 10th Infantry at Camp Scott during the Utah War (1857-1858). They are armed with M1841 "Mississippi"rifles, M1855 Riflemen's belts, and the saber bayonet. Any thoughs as to why they all wear thier cap boxes on the wrong side? The e-mail trail below should show you how we have come to that conclusion.
The picture cabn be seen here: http://content.lib.utah.edu/cdm/ref/..._Class/id/8475
Chuck Mood
LtColMood@aol.com
Sent: Wed, Nov 7, 2012 6:32 am
Subject: Re: Latest Version of Ho for Camp Floyd!
I also believe that the image was oriented the correct way. Normally, reversed images are in daguerreotypes and ambrotypes. But this image appeared to be an early print, made from a glass negative. That suggested to me that unless the photographer accidentally reversed the negative, it should have been correctly oriented as we originally looked at it. This also fits better with the soldiers carrying their weapon at right shoulder arms. Here is the image again with most of the soldiers and back to its original orientation.
Studying the fourth figure from the left, I am in agreement that the shadow looks blocky like a rifleman belt buckle and not round as with the U.S. buckle. But it still leaves the mystery as to why they are all wearing their cap pouches on the left. It can't be that they moved them so as to not interfere with pulling the rope; all of the soldiers regardless of which side of the rope they are on pulling the wagon have their pouch on the left. I can understand one soldier being different, but they all do. I will go back and look for some pre-Civil War photographs to see if I can find anyone else who has done this. Interesting mystery...
Incidentally, the presence of the rifleman belt indicates that these are 10th Infantry soldiers.
I have not been able to find the original of this image. The original was apparently brought into Utah State Historical Society and copied many years ago. The original was apparently returned to its owner and they did not record who had it. All they had was a very old copy print, which is what I scanned and am sending you. That is as close to the original in sharpness as we can get.
Sent: Tuesday, November 6, 2012 9:46 PM
Subject: Re: Latest Version of Ho for Camp Floyd!
Thanks for flip-flopping this image. Seeing it this way I'm even more confused as now the hammer and lock on the rifle of the 4th guy from the right is on the wrong side of the piece. This is what I now believe. The original orientation is correct, not this flip flopped version. In the original version the lock on the musket is correct. This version also orients the saber bayonet on its proper side ( to the wearers right). I now believe that it is the cap box that is on the incorrect side (which is doable, vice the bayonet being on the wrong side with a bayonet frog that was sewn to the belt.) Also, I believe what I thought to be the front of the jacket orienting which side of the jacket covers the other when buttoned was a scratch in the negative. On closer observation it was correct at the bottom of the jacket but switched sides as it approached the top of the jacket. Thoughts?
Sent: Tue, Nov 6, 2012 7:54 pm
Subject: Re: Latest Version of Ho for Camp Floyd!
Here is the image flipped, with some more of the soldiers in it. You are right -- bayonets are in the "wrong" place.
I think you are right about the bayonets being on the wrong side.
I enlarged sections of the original photo and studied it in sections
It's clear with other soldiers that they all have M1841's, and cartridge
boxes on their belts. The bayonet on the wrong side doesn't really
bother me. They are on fatique duty collecting wood. They have no
horses, so they have to pull the wagon. (Gee, I wonder were their
horses went) They could have moved things around on their belt
to fit the situation. On CW belts, cap boxes and bayonet scabbards
did not fit over the buckle. One had to remove the buckle to put
those items on. I believe the Rifleman's buckle was removable as
well, so the cap box could be placed anywere.
I attached another copy of the Camp Scott, Wood Detail Photo.
On Tue, 6 Nov 2012 15:13:24 -0500 (EST)
ltcolmood@aol.com wrote:
>
>
>
> > (1) I believe trooper #4 is carrying a M1841 (AKA Mississippi) rifle. I
> base this on what I believe to be a "brass patch box" near the rifle's butt.
> The shape of the reflection is dead on for a M1841 patch box, and I do not
> see a Maynard priming system on the lock plate which would rule out a M1855
> rifle.
>
> (2) What does disturb me about this picture is that I believe the saber
> bayonets are on the wrong side. Let me explain: First of all, the picture is
> reversed: the cap box always goes on the wearers right and the wearers left
> side (facing forward, the side of your left hand) of a man's coat is always
> on top when buttoned. These are reversed in this picture. Second the
> bayonet scabbard should be on the opposite side of the wearers cap box
> (wearer's left). It appears that soldiers 1,4 and 6 (from the left) all have
> saber bayonets on the same side as the cap box (right side). If the saber
> bayonet frog is sewn to the M1855 Riflemen's belt, then this should be
> impossible! Thoughts?
>
> > Sent: Tue, Nov 6, 2012 11:19 am
> Subject: Re: Latest Version of Ho for Camp Floyd!
>
>
> > That enlargement is great. I enlarged it even more and agree with your
> indings Chuck. In fact, I believe two others have a "square-ish" looking
> elt plate as well. Isn't that a Mississippi that man #4 is carrying?
> Mike
> On Mon, 5 Nov 2012 22:27:47 -0500 (EST)
> ltcolmood@aol.com wrote:
>
>
>
> Thanks for the enlargement. Your enlarged image makes me feel even stronger
> that they are wearing riflemen's belts. Two things are in its favor. (1)
> They are not wearing cartridge box slings, so the cartridge box is attached
> to the belt, and (2) even stronger evidence, the belt plate in the picture
> (fourth from the left) has an overall "square-ish" appearance which is what
> the appearance of the riflemen's belt gives, when assembled, vice an oval
> with US stamped in it.
>
>
>
>
> > Sent: Mon, Nov 5, 2012 7:34 pm
> Subject: Re: Latest Version of Ho for Camp Floyd!
>
>
> Here is a better scan of these soldiers. They could be wearing a rifleman's
> belt but it is hard to tell for certain.
>
> >
>
>
> Sent: Monday, November 5, 2012 12:33 PM
> Subject: Re: Latest Version of Ho for Camp Floyd!
>
>
>
>
> Gents,
> There are cap boxes on the riflemen's belts in this photo taken at Camp
> Scott... They are best seen of the third and fourth soldier from the left.
>
> Chuck
> LtColMood@aol.com
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