"Wytheville Depot" Jacket

[WpnsMan]

Re: "Wytheville Depot" Jacket

Thanks,

I appreciate the reply.

[lukegilly13]

Re: "Wytheville Depot" Jacket

Bryan, just saw this...I don't believe they are va state buttons either but looked more like some kind of civilian floral button to me. Next time I'm in ill try to get a better pic of them.

[WpnsMan]

Re: "Wytheville Depot" Jacket

Thanks Luke,

I live in Pulaski County about a quarter of a mile from the Wythe county line and have always had an interest in the “Wytheville Depot” jackets. To date most theories on the traits of or, existence of a Wytheville produced jacket seem to be more speculation than any document based research. I have also read speculation of the Dublin Depot being a possible source of production. Living in the area, my limited research to date was that opposed to being a manufactory during the war Dublin was a Railroad Depot and warehouse for supplies, as it was the junction of different gage track in use by several lines.

I’d like the back stories on the provenance of both jackets in this thread, especially the jacket housed in the Lincoln Museum. Previous post state the owner was wounded at 2nd Winchester. My research would lead me to believe 3rd Winchester is more probable as the 25th Va. Cavalry didn’t exist during 2nd Winchester. Though the 27th Battalion of Partisan Rangers, the nucleus of the later 25th did. Regardless, unless the uniform in question was removed from the soldier during that time I doubt it was the one he was wearing at Winchester. My thoughts are that it was the last uniform issued to him that he wore home in 1865 after many of Early’s troops disbanded at Waynesboro. That would coincide more along the accepted style (RDIII’ish) displayed by this piece. The fact that it has a four piece body among other details give me pause (warranted or not) in associating it with the Wytheville Depot at this time. Although, the 25th Cavalry more than likely drew supplies from the area. Does anyone have a picture of the back of this jacket?

The jacket in Atlanta looks identical to the one posted in a previous thread of a Soldier in the 63rd Va. (Riley Reedy, Co. C). I have seen the same picture in the Virginia Regimental series among others.

I’m thinking the best bet to make an educated conclusion concerning Wytheville Depot produced jackets is to look for photographic and documentary evidence of the units that were recruited and/or stationed in the area. The 63rd was one such unit as it was garrisoned in the area until mid 1863 when they went to Tenn. and later Ga. Most of the units engaged at Cloyd’s Mountain on May 9th, 1864 and where the jacket in Atlanta was picked up, were organized in and stationed in the region. The picture of Reedy, in all likelihood was taken before the unit moved out of the area. This in addition to the jacket in the Atlanta collection being picked up in mid 1864 suggests that the type with epaulettes was in production for some time.

Perhaps the best candidate for research may be the 45th Virginia Infantry Regiment. They were garrisoned in the Saltville are for an extended period of time and would have been drawing primarily from the Depot at Wytheville. They were also engaged at Cloyd's Mountain and did not leave the area until after the Lynchburg campaign when they joined Early’s Army of the Valley in July of 1864.

I guess I have a new project……….

[lukegilly13]

Re: "Wytheville Depot" Jacket

I do have more pics but not much detail:

[18th us regulars]

Re: "Wytheville Depot" Jacket

Luke,

This whole idea about this or that jacket, being from this or that depot, is purely a need to know where a jacket was made. I will tell you this, I have studied for the past few months on just the "Georgia Jackets" note: I did not say "depot". I have come to a lot of different ideas and some very surprising. The cloth on the jacket appears to have a spindle dye wool and a natural cotton wrap, this would tell me either a North Carolina Mill or a South Carolina Mill. Notice the lightness and dark color on the pants from the camera angle. Its a great looking jacket, I would almost bet that the jacket and pants where made by the same sewing corp. for somebody's love one. Look, we should at the fact that these "depot's" where holding places and not where Quartermasters worked on clothing for the army. They may have paid women and men for making and tailoring these jackets and pants but no way to know, other than when we see 3-5 jacket that look the same, please note that even this should very suspect to us. All, women did not sew a like, and some Sewing Machines that where used, did not have the same needle work either. I hope you can ask the place where this Jacket is, for help or a fact sheet on it. And maybe you can reproduce it. These statements are not to light a fire of defending statements of others research, but and different idea on what to look for. Find the mill then find the women's sewing circle and then find a paper with an article about the sewing circle, and your about as close as you are going to get to having the jackets right. Good luck and keep us informed on your quest.

Best regards,
Ken BA, MBA, JD

[WpnsMan]

Re: "Wytheville Depot" Jacket

Luke,

Thanks for the additional pictures. That answers a couple of questions I had concerning the construction of the back panels.

Ken,

I thought it was an accepted fact that most of the Quartermaster Depots did not produce either the material used in the construction of their products or have in house seamstresses doing the actual sewing.

The materials would have been purchased from mills in the area or transferred from other depots as required by the Quartermaster’s Office as deemed necessary to meet demands.

As opposed to the Commutation System where yes, the pattern and cut of the garments were at the whim of whatever contractor, Soldiers Aid Society, sewing circle or loved one chose to produce those articles “Manufactured” by the Depots generally follow standard patterns.

Once at the Depot or Manufactory, the material would be marked out by tailors and cut into kits to be distributed to locals for construction and return to the Depot for payment on the piecework system by the very individuals, sewing circles, etc. you mention. While construction techniques and quality was indeed dependant on the skill level of who actually sewed the garment in question, they generally followed the pattern laid out by the Depot tailors.

The Virginia Quartermaster’s Reports for 1862 linked by Joseph show evidence of this practice as the Depot in Wytheville disbursed funds for the manufacture of clothing. The report also indicates the quantity of material purchased as well as thread and buttons. It goes on to state the actual number of garments “manufactured” by the Depot. If they were simply buying readymade garments I would think the report would state that fact.

This thread is about attempting to tie either of the jackets in question to a known Depot, in this case Wytheville. Unless Les Jensen got it wrong, this is an accepted theory based on documentary evidence as well as identifying characteristics found in period photographs and surviving examples that can attribute their origin to specific Depots during the war.

At this point, I am seeing evidence; depot records, photographs of soldiers stationed in the area in conjunction with their unit histories, that make the possibility of identifying a Wytheville Depot jacket plausible. The construction details and history associated to the Atlanta jacket and to a lesser degree the Lincoln jacket are compelling pieces of evidence that would seem to support the theory as opposed to attributing them to purely sewing circle products.

YMMV,

[lukegilly13]

Re: "Wytheville Depot" Jacket

Bryan,
Do you have any specific info on the "Wytheville Depot" jacket or so called? I'm curious about the materials used for construction...such as linen thread, jean wool, etc. There are other local jackets such as the Cumberland Gap Jacket that or more like the RD type. Perhaps they could be grouped together and get a general trend???

The Lincoln jacket is sort of an oddball. It belonged to Timothy Ball...could probably pull his service record or widow's pension and see when he was wounded??? It was at Winchester, either 2nd or 3rd. If I remember correctly he was hit direct on with a cannon round and was obviously not wearing this jacket. There is a little dried blood on the cuff of the right sleeve as if he had a small cut or bloody nose and wiped it off. Other than that, no signs of a major wound while wearing it. According to the family who donated it...for what it's worth... He did not wear the jacket off to war either. It was shipped home in a trunk of belongings during the war (perhaps when he received his wound). The trousers were in the trunk as well and they appear to be a matching pair. Nothing out of the ordinary about the trousers...as in they are what you would expect to see in a pair of confederate trousers.

Addition:
Timothy Sullins Ball enlisted at Rose Hill on Sept. 20, 1863. He was killed at Kernstown, Va., July 23, 1864.

Source: http://www.history-sites.com/cgi-bin...d=read;id=1878

[lukegilly13]

Re: "Wytheville Depot" Jacket

Soldiers and sailors system puts him in the 25th Va Cav. Possibly in the unit that formed the 25th....dunno. But here's what we do know. Attached are pics of 25th Va Cav soldiers. Same jacket??? Again we can't be sure without seeing the backs and studying construction. But if numerous 25th Va soldiers are wearing the same jacket that makes me think mass issue.

Pvt. James A. Joyner

http://www.flickr.com/photos/library_of_congress/6987392065/

Pvt. David Lowry of Co. E
Lowry may be wearing a frock.

[WpnsMan]

Re: "Wytheville Depot" Jacket

Luke,

I have no specifics as to material or thread type. I doubt any records exists other than generic references made by the Depots. The report previously mentioned only note quantities in yards of “gray cloth”, shirting, sheeting and oznaburgs. I’m sure they purchased what was available from the mills supplying them which could be anything from jean and cassimere to kersey. Unless some very descriptive invoices from a supplying mill to the Wytheville Quartermaster surface, which I find highly doubtful, there is no way to get a definitive answer on that.

I would very much like to review Ball’s CSR to try and ascertain when he could have been issued or, sent home the uniform. Unfortunately, I don’t have easy access to the National Archives files like I did when I worked in the area.

[WpnsMan]

Re: "Wytheville Depot" Jacket

Another good picture,

That is the current focus of my research, finding photographic evidence from units known to have been organized, operating in the region or, supplied by Wytheville. As I mentioned earlier, I have seen these jackets in photos of 63rd Va. Soldiers. A friend has the Virginia Regimental series for the units who were engaged at Cloyd’s Mtn and a few others raised in the area that I need to review as well as LOC searches. It is just a matter of researching unit histories, CSR’s, time, place, etc. in which to draw an educated hypothesis from.

I may never find enough evidence to arrive at anything more than a “probable” but, I am hopeful. Yes, I know those more learned than I have tried.

[Mississippian]

Re: "Wytheville Depot" Jacket

Gentlemen,

It maybe of some little help, but during into a brief research foray into SW Virginia and East Tennessee I came across a letter sent from Richmond to General Bragg telling him NOT to supply troops in East TN from depots in Georgia, Alabama, Mississippi, ect. As those troops were considered to be in the same Department as SW Virginia they were to be supplied directly from Richmond. I tend to agree with Mr. Dickerson and think the AHC jacket is a RD variant jacket perhaps produced locally in SW Virginia, it wouldn't surprise me at all to think Richmond sent a pattern or a sample jacket out there and see it get modified slightly.

This reminds me, wasn't there a thread about a RDII Jacket that was I.D.'ed to a member of Carter's 1st TN Cavalry who spent much who spent most of the war in East TN and SW Virginia? It was on some auction site IIRC.

Will MacDonald

[adamandnicole]

Re: "Wytheville Depot" Jacket

This is great stuff guys. Exactly what I was hoping for. It's nice to see people trying to come up with new research instead of just regurgitating what they read in Echoes of Glory.

Adam Dickerson

[18th us regulars]

Re: "Wytheville Depot" Jacket

I know right, looking in all the books, online, this is the stuff is what I live for. And picture are great, may I borrow them for my collection.

[brown]

Re: "Wytheville Depot" Jacket

There was a brown so-called RDII on Horse Soldiers site that belonged to a guy in the 3rd Tennessee Cav. Family claimed he was wearing it when captured at Chickamauga.

[4VADRUMMER]

Re: "Wytheville Depot" Jacket

Here is the link to that jacket: http://www.oldsouthantiques.com/os1581p1.htm