"Wytheville Depot" Jacket

[WpnsMan]

Re: "Wytheville Depot" Jacket

(snip)
Gentlemen,

I tend to agree with Mr. Dickerson and think the AHC jacket is a RD variant jacket perhaps produced locally in SW Virginia, it wouldn't surprise me at all to think Richmond sent a pattern or a sample jacket out there and see it get modified slightly.

Will MacDonald

I found this tidbit intriguing,

This notation is made on the quarterly capitulation for the Quartermaster’s report for the period ending Sept 16th, 1862 by Maj L.R. Smoot in Lynchburg. The report is for expenditures and states 3 Jackets were purchased for samples at a total cost of $21.50 for the State Line troops under command of Gen Floyd. Floyd's command was garrisoned in the Saltville area during this time and most of Wythevilles reports list issues to the State Line troops.

Records also indicate that the Wytheville Depot was subordinate and reported to the Quartermaster’s Office in Lynchburg. Returns for both facilities were forwarded from Lynchburg with a capitulation of the totals of both facilities to the Quartermaster General’s Office in Richmond.

As this is a quarterly report, it shows they may have been trying to standardize a pattern as early a July 1862 between the Depots. Perhaps one of the three samples or a pattern made from them was forwarded on to Wytheville. Purely conjecture at this point but it seems entirely plausible. Which begs the question, where did they obtain the 3 samples from?

[Mississippian]

Re: "Wytheville Depot" Jacket

The Stephens jacket has always interested me, thanks for the link. It says 3rd TN Cavalry Battalion, but that was merged into Carter's 1st TN Cavalry in Nov. 1862. This regiment didn't fight at Chickamauga, it was stationed at Cumberland Cap and was one of the few Confederate units to get away before most of the garrison was captured on Sept 9th 1863. It spent most of 1864 fighting in the Shenandoah Valley.

It's odd that Stephens' CSR only has records of him till the merger of 3rd into the 1st. No trace of records after that I can find. No POW records.

Will MacDonald

[lukegilly13]

Re: "Wytheville Depot" Jacket

" Private Stephens’ jacket is of Trans-Mississippi manufacture and likely manufactured by the Atlanta Arsenal or a local Tennessee manufacturer."
I wonder what makes them say that? Looks pretty typical Eastern jacket to me.
Give me a few minutes/days to dig...I will see if I can turn anything up on him at Cumberland Gap.
Many soldiers captured in SWVA are shipped through Cumberland gap and disappear. They either escape and enlist elsewhere or just go home...but sometimes they do not show up on any prison rolls or musters nor die during the war. I will see if I can turn up Stevens on a muster here.

[brown]

Re: "Wytheville Depot" Jacket

I am always concerned by the RDII (or III,etc) descriptions. Six piece bodies and two piece sleeves were common in other places.

By the way, anybody seen Stephens jacket? Does it have two pieces sleeves? I could never tell from the photos.

[lukegilly13]

Re: "Wytheville Depot" Jacket

The Stevens story is shady at best. The Carter's 1st was not at Chickamauga. I did find a Gilbert Hardin who was captured at Cumberland Gap from Co B of the 1st TN Cav. He was sent to Douglas and later transferred to Point Lookout where he took the oath in '64. Could this be what happened to Stephens???? Don't know for sure. But Soldiers and Sailors puts him in Co D...not C. Perhaps though another Jacket that saw use at the Gap... But tying it to the Wytheville Depot would be a stretch in my opinion....but if he unlisted in 62 and was captured in 63 and the jacket is in decent shape it narrows down the time of issue and use for sure.
Fun conversation!!!! Keep it rolling! Very good thread!

[teufelhund]

Re: "Wytheville Depot" Jacket

Just a note to build on what Ken mentioned as depots being holding places for supplies as it would apply here in SW Va. In the book, Bluegrass Confederate: The Headquarters Diary of Edward O. Guerrant, Mr. Guerrant makes mention of a depot at Gladesville here in SW Va several times. The town was burned to the ground during the war. I also remember mention of a depot in Danville, Va.

[teufelhund]

Re: "Wytheville Depot" Jacket



Here is a close up of the cloth used on the jacket in the display at Lincoln Memorial University's museum. The trousers are made of the same cloth.

[GreencoatCross]

Re: "Wytheville Depot" Jacket

Gorgeous fabric! It's definitely a finished material, looks like cassimere to me. My first impression is that the weft yarns are natural white/cream wool and the warp was originally natural white as well; if you look at the frayed portion of the warp you can see that the core fibers are still white. It may be a safe bet to say that this cloth was vegetable dyed at some point which might explain the current color and the fact that the dyestuff did not fully absorb into the cotton warp fibers.

What is that dark colored cloth at lower right, almost out of the image? It appears to be joined to the jacket cloth. Is that what the jacket is lined with?

Regarding uniforms identified to Cumberland Gap, check this out. It was picked up by a Federal soldier but is not identified to a specific Confederate soldier. Six piece body, one piece sleeves, and very poorly made. The exterior and interior were constructed separately then overcast together around the perimeter. The interior collar was sewn on last and felled to the jacket lining. As far as I can tell the jacket it cut from a plain woven natural on natural or tan jeans and lined with cotton osnaburg; buttons are plain iron painted yellow.

[teufelhund]

Re: "Wytheville Depot" Jacket


Opps, I made a boo boo and just realized it thanks to Brians keen eye. The dark color at the right edge of the 1st photo(in post #37) is the black stripe on the pants by the pocket flap. The photos in this post are closeups of the cloth used on the jacket and a view of the pocket area. I couldn't get good photos because the uniform was behind a plexiglass display case and my camera wouldn't focus correctly.

[WpnsMan]

Re: "Wytheville Depot" Jacket

In reviewing the Virginia Regimental series today for the 45th Va Inf Rgt, I found a very clear photo of Lt. Calvin N. Porter. He is clearly wearing a jacket that matches the jacket housed in the Atlanta History Center; six button front, welt pocket on left breast, square collar and epaulettes with what appear to be coat size buttons as opposed to the cuff size buttons on the AHC example.

Porter was killed at Cloyd’s Mountain, the same action in which the AHC jacket was captured. The 45th Va Rgt was garrisoned in Saltville and the surrounding area for an extended period of time previous to the battle at Cloyd’s Mtn and would have drawn heavily from the Depot at Wytheville. My initial hunch was that focusing on the 45th may glean some useful clues and this is promising.

I have a couple of leads on local museums that house collections of wartime photographs of veterans from the surrounding area. I am hopeful that things will come together on the subject as time permits.

[GreencoatCross]

Re: "Wytheville Depot" Jacket

Here is a link to the image of Lt. Calvin Porter: http://www.cowanauctions.com/auction...x?ItemId=17053

[WpnsMan]

Re: "Wytheville Depot" Jacket

Thanks for the link Brian,

The picture in the regimental series as stated, is reversed to the "as worn" perspective. I think the auction description is a generic assumption more than based on the actual garment. The button spacing looks to far apart to be a seven button front.

[adamandnicole]

Re: "Wytheville Depot" Jacket

All,
Once again, great discussion. As I'm looking at all of the evidence presented in the preceding posts, the question keeps coming up , "do I think this is a specific pattern/variant that can be attributed to a specific region?"

I feel the the AHS jacket,the photo of the soldier from the 63rd VA (attached in an earlier post on SW Va. uniforms) and this most recent photo of the soldier from the 45th Va., ALL appear to be of the same variant. The jacket that Luke pictured from the Lincoln museum also appears to share some characteristics with the AHS jacket.

It gets somewhat dicey to claim much in the way of "pattern" when you are talking about jackets with six piece bodies and two piece sleeves. We know that there are examples of this style of jacket pictured in photos of Arkansas soldiers,Tennessee soldiers,Virginia soldiers etc......I would be willing to bet you could find a picture of a guy in this general style of jacket from every state of the Confederacy (probably even some Federals).

The difference that I can see in the three most similar pieces of evidence presented so far that start to make me think that we may be on to a regional variation of jacket are: 1.) the soldiers/garment are all from the same region of Virginia,but different regiments, so it isn't so easy to say that one private individual made all matching garments for the regiment 2.) the jackets all appear to share the same amount of buttons, a pocket on the upper left chest and shoulder straps 3.) the AHS jacket was reportedly taken from a depot, not from a soldier.this indicates to me that the jacket was one of many,waiting to be distributed,not the work of someone's mother

I could be getting excited over nothing here, but it seems somewhat beyond coincidental that three different jackets (AHS,45th,63rd),documented to the same region that look almost the same are not the product of a specific depot variation.

Adam Dickerson

[rmilstead]

Re: "Wytheville Depot" Jacket

All,
In his landmark work back in 1989 (yes almost 25 years ago) Les Jensen uses a simple and relatively definitive criteria to say that a class of jackets represented the output of a specific "Depot", at least 3 examples that share significant characteristics with a known provenance of being in a geographic theater of the conflict served by a source. That is, in Les' own words:

" Two basic rules of thumb in these attributions have been that there must be at least three surviving uniforms of a given type to constitute a pattern, and those uniforms should each have histories that indicate a common source. Moreover, if a uniform survives today and if the soldier who wore it was still in service in 1865, and unless there is evidence to the contrary, the uniform is considered to be the last one he was issued."

This was independent of the number of photographs depicting the style of jacket although if those have appropriate provenance thay certainly do represent useful supporting information. I would suggest that until and unless a similar criteria is met the attributation of these jackets to a specific "Depot" is purely speculative at best. The six piece body, two piece sleeve pattern was a traditional standard for this style of garment in the period and as has been pointed out is found in many regions. Four piece bodies or one piece sleeves are variations. Furthermore the construction and type of lining are significant elements in establishing the characteristics of the class as well which has not been discussed for all examples. Of the jackets discussed in this thread thus far I believe variation rather that consistency is more the rule.

Just my $0.02

Dick Milstead
Hardaway's Alabama Battery
Baltimore Light Artillery
Company of Military Historians

[WpnsMan]

Re: "Wytheville Depot" Jacket

Adam,

I concur, the chances of all the above being coincidental is becoming less likely in my mind.


Dick,

I will agree that this can all be considered speculation if we apply the criteria set forth by Les Jensen. Given the minuscule ratio of surviving examples to the numbers manufactured, the rule of three is probably why there are numerous “mystery” jackets floating around that cannot be attributed to any one manufactory facility and never will be.

However, I would contend that the current theory can be supported by some pretty compelling if not circumstantial evidence that meets most of the first basic rule by exception. The “last jacket” or, rule number two does not apply in this instance.

1) Documentary evidence exists in the form of Quartermasters Reports, that the Wytheville Depot was manufacturing jackets as well as other clothing from 1862 onward. The Depot was the primary conduit for supplying troops in the area and operated until its destruction at the end of the war.

2) Photographic evidence exist showing jackets with unique construction details (six button front, left breast welt pocket, epaulettes and square collars) being worn by Soldiers of units that were organized or, which had been operating in the region and supplied by the Wytheville Depot for an extended period of time.

3) At least one surviving example exists (AHC) having the same unique construction details as those pictured. Furthermore this example has provenance that tie it to a specific engagement that one of the previously identified units participated in. It was acquired in Dublin, Va. a railroad depot and warehouse for quartermaster stores and the object of the Federal raid that initiated the engagement at Cloyd’s Mountain. Dublin is 5 miles along the retreat route from Cloyd’s Mtn and 28 miles distant from Wytheville.

4) There is photographic and documentary evidence of a Soldier who participated in and was killed during the same action where the surviving jacket was obtained, wearing a jacket displaying the same characteristics of the surviving example.

I will agree that six piece bodies and two piece sleeves are indicative of nothing other than the jackets in question displays that styling. The jackets pictured appear to display the same over-all styling in addition to the unique characteristics we are discussing. As for construction, if you are referring to the method and quality of the sewing itself and lining materials, those questions have yet to be answered until someone inspects the jacket in question.

It is not outside reason to speculate that Wytheville was producing a variation of the jackets Richmond was producing. From the limited production figures I’m seeing, I have doubts the capability of Wytheville was ever sufficient to meet the demands placed on it from units in the region. Photos of Soldiers in these same units are frequently seen wearing what appear to be Richmond Depot type II’s with nine button fronts, epaulettes and belt loops. If not producing the more common variant themselves it may be evidence that those jackets were supplied by Richmond to meet demand.

What I am purposing is that while the jacket in question and in photographs display the same styling and overall construction characteristics of their Richmond contemporaries, they also exhibit unique construction details that may warrant the possibility that a distinct variant if not pattern may be attributed to Wytheville in its own right.