Restoring original muskets

[KPavia]

Hey, all. I hope I started this thread in the right place.

I'm just wondering what kind of work it takes to restore an original back to its original condition, specifically bringing the metal parts back to armory bright. Here's an example of a musket for sale at the Horse Soldier.
Horse Soldier: 1861 musket

Would it be possible to bring this musket back from "in the black" status to bright or is it too rusted? Would the markings be ruined or would they show up after the rust is removed, if possible? If the rust was removed, would the metal be all pitted?

I've been doing google searches on removing rust from steel and such and so far, I haven't been able to determine at what point is metal too rusted to be too far gone, so I'm turning to the gunsmiths that I know are here on this forum for what they've done in the past.

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Restoring original muskets

Hallo!

Always with the first caveat that pictures are rarely ever as good a shaving the gun in hand to examine...
And the second caveat is different lads hold to different standards when it comes to "operationalizing" words or terms like "refurbish" or "restore." For me, an din my Heresies, "restoring' an original means returning it to its 1861-1865 'when in actual use" appearance. Thems be fightin' words for gun collectors and raises the whole value/resale value wars. And also cuts across (so-called) Farb versus Authentic lines about using or not using a relic/antique gun that looks 150 years old.

IMHO, and IMHE....

Short answer is yes, sight unseen.

From what I can enlarge and see, what I believe I see is a case of "peach fuzz" rusting and not "orange peel" pock marks and pits. Typically, metal goes "gray," then "black" and then continues to oxidize into brown iron oxide "rust" that then unevenly starts to peck away at the surface leaving pin prick craters that expand out and down. For the metal, you would be hoping that the "peach fuzz' would come off and that there is no orange peel below deep enough not to be able to be polished out. 'Blackening" if not extensively deep, can also be lifted with much elbow grease and FLITZ.

Wood looks decent all in all. The soft outer layer of fungus softened oiled wood can be judiciously sanded off without destroying contours, etc., and the dents and scratches steamed out. Etc., etc. before reoiling.

Biggest obstacle I see is in the images and the description of the lock plate markings being very thin and shallow so they may not survive a cleaning. Were it mine, I would swap in a Rich Cross museum-quality drop in original repro lock plate and save the original for resale or to go back in the gun later on.

Again, I could render a better analysis with the gun in hand, and knowing your Mental Picture of how you see it when done, and perhaps with also some understanding of your tool and knowledge/skill sets in working with Period wood and metal. AND, talking from small pictures here.

Curt

[KPavia]

Re: Restoring original muskets

Thanks for your reply, Curt.

For me, an din my Heresies, "restoring' an original means returning it to its 1861-1865 'when in actual use" appearance.

That's my definition of "restoring" as well and that would be my goal.

I don't have any skill whatsoever in restoring firearms. I do want to buy an original and instead of spending $2500 or so on a really shiny and great condition original, I was thinking that getting a more beat up one at around the $1000 or so range and restoring it would get me what I want at a cheaper price with the added benefit of knowledge on how to restore and the fun of doing it. So, I've been perusing sites like gunbroker looking at originals and looking at the various originals in their various states of disrepair. Since I have no skill, I want to make sure I get one that isn't above a newbie's level, like having to do work on the lock or repair the stock. I wouldn't mind learning how to repair the stock; I'm just scared that I'd end up ruining it while trying to fix it. Also, the reason I posted the Horse Soldier example was because the pictures are the best quality of the ones I've looked at so we can see more detail, and it's pretty representative of the muskets I've been looking at online. Sadly, there aren't a lot of local sources for antique muskets so unless I get lucky through stopping at an antique store, I'm stuck to looking online.

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Restoring original muskets

Hallo!

IMHO, and IMHE...

Horse Soldier in Gettysburg carry a great original line. But, being Gettysburg and a 'captive audience' of sorts, their prices are NUG higher than what the same condition gun can be had for elsewhere more times than not.

NOTHING against them, they have lightened my wallet many, many times over the years. :)

Curt

[ACo.]

Re: Restoring original muskets

I agree, in principal, with what you want to do Kenny, but I would not do it under any circumstances. I say that from the point of view of both a reenactor and a collector. The musket in question is, as Curt says, in good, condition, an attic find and as such it is highly desirable from a collector's standpoint. If you do, or have done, the work necessary to "restore" it to the condition you want, it will cut in half the value that you will be paying for it, not to mention the amount you will pay a qualified restorer, who may or may not know what he is doing, it is a difficult and time consuming job. In other words, if, after using it happily for a few years, you want to sell it on the collector's market, you will take a huge financial hit as the gun has been taken out of the collectable realm. That will also be the case if you want to sell it to another reenactor.

Your best bet to get a gun that looks as it would have in 1861 - 1865 is to buy a new or well maintained reproduction. If none of the factory-made reproductions currently made have what you want - and few do in my humble opinion - then purchase the parts from the many dealers who sell such parts, original or well done reproduction parts are available. New stocks and modern made barrels of the period correct configuration are available and the cost will be less than you will spend on an original. You will need the services of your restorer or someone familiar with the work but the cost will still be affordable (probably less than the piece from The Horse Soldier) and well worth it, you will have a period looking, custom reproduction without removing the original from the collector's market where, to be honest, it should stay as a piece of history.

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Restoring original muskets

Hallo!

My best BFF, the late Rich B., was a Berdan Sharpshooter. And wanted a restored original Sharps rifle.
With actual Berdan Contract NM1863 Sharps being more than he wanted to spend on a living history gun, he opted for a standard NM1859.

It was a nice piece, excellent wood, excellent action, and excellent metal save fro someone having judiciously cleaned off whatever "color" was present to make it "bright.' He paid $3500 for it at a gun show circa 2000. He had it professionally restored for $500.
He well knew, and appreciated he was destroying its collector's and resale value, but it was the price he was willing and able to pay to have NM1859 Sharps in its CW condition (albeit not 100% authentic for Berdan's).

When he died, his wife tried to sell it. Eventually she did, for $1,000.

An aside...

Availability is random if not sporadic, and more commonly in N-SSA circles. BUT an option not mentioned yet is the full custom-builts using minty original parts or reproductions of original (not Italian) parts to get an authentic gun that is not a so-called farby Italian piece or an original perhaps not best to be subjected to reenacting field use, etc., etc. And whose prices fall below that of originals in most condition one encounters them in.

Curt

[arkangel33]

Re: Restoring original muskets

Something else to think on is building one from original parts. The Key is being patient. I built a Maynard 1816 conversion by finding a Barrel with the right bolster and lock plate. Then went through various other places such as S&S for some parts an original L/R front site that a soldered to the upper barrel band and voila the Musket I have always wanted for around $1,100 in parts. I cloth wheel polished the parts so it is restored to armory bright. I used to Ship and boat props for a living so have 1,000's of hours on a cloth buffing wheel. If you are not practiced I don't recommend to do it to gun parts for the first go. From my point of view there are plenty of muskets to go around. Most collectors just hoard them in gun safes rarely ever taking them out. Case in point my best friend owns over 150 muskets plus appendages. They haven't seen the light of day in several years. So if you want an original I would suggest building one or getting some help to build one. You wont regret it. I have photo's of my 1816 on my business Facebook page if you want to take a look a what can be done from a pile O' parts.

[KPavia]

Re: Restoring original muskets

Why is a rusty dusty original worth more than one that has the patina/rust cleaned off of it? That just doesn't make any sense to me.

Thanks for the opinions so far on why I shouldn't buy an original and clean it up, but to be honest, I'm not a collector, I'm a student and a lover of history. So, when I do buy an original, I'm going to restore it back to it's proper period look. I don't want a nice brown even patina over the lock; I want to see the markings on the lock. I want to see the date on the tang and the stamps on the barrel. That may destroy the monetary value behind its "collectability" but it doesn't take away the history behind it, which is all that matters to me, and it won't be back on the market until I'm dead (and I'm only 28 so there's a ways to go) so I won't have to worry about its resale value. My desire for an original stems from the desire to have a piece that has been there and done that.

As far as assembling a new musket from original parts, has anyone had experience with gun stocks from this person? I'm curious as to how close his stocks are to original stocks. Dunlap Woodcraft military stocks

[hireddutchcutthroat]

Re: Restoring original muskets

I have built a few muskets from dissociated original parts and junk parts guns now. I do all my metal refinishing very gently by hand being very conscious of the markings etc. Like anything time and patients are key.

[arkangel33]

Re: Restoring original muskets

Bob will be working on a rifled but not sighted 42' in the near future as well. If I can ever meet up to hand over the parts.

[hireddutchcutthroat]

Re: Restoring original muskets

You would think a couple of guys in the same region would be able to get together easier, but my lack of any kind of normal schedule makes it beyond tough. We will make it happen sometime soon Mike.

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Restoring original muskets

Hallo!

I am a heretic on this, so I am not the best to answer the question as it is mostly "nonsensical' to be. BUT, it is the reality.

Intact "patina" IMHO, grew out of a belief, a while back among collectors and even museums, that a gun with patina must be, has to be, an original and not a fake or counterfeit. (Counterfeiting or Faking is a science and art amateurs NUG do not possess in creating a Believable Image.) A patina, no matter whether it is 150 years of oxidation, post WAr surplus use gaining dings dents, scratches, gouges unrelated to its War time service, fungus eaten outer wood stock, etc., make a gun more "valuable," more desirable, more collectible, more prestigious than one that has been properly cleaned of patina.

The extreme of this is entrenched so much that it makes for acceptable 'Farbery' as can be found in the 18th century. Most original 18th century guns often have environmentally "rusted" to a brown patina. Even though browning as a gun and gun furniture did not become popular until the 1790's at the earliest in 18th century reenacting and living history a gun was not correct unless it had a browned barrel and lock, etc.. One can pretty much date a custom-built longrifle built before the late 1990's based on its browning versus fire bluing or polished bare metal prevalent before the 1790's.

In my heresies, a gun correctly returned to its appearance when in use is exactly the same as restoring a rusted relic antique car. Obviously, it is a different Culture there, as its resale value, collectors' value, and prestige value are not "ruined" or "destroyed" or "history" is removed and lost when the car is restored to its new appearance and function.

Q: Why is a gun different??
A. Because it.. is.

:)

Such has changed over time. It was almost a universal fashion to strip and polish guns bright in the 1920's, 1930's, and 1940's in many circles. Several of the guns seen in Gettysburg or Harrisburg have been cleaned and polished bright.
Part of it was a lack of knowledge that the black ''dirt' in the metal was the remnants or traces of Period bluing, or that the cloudy gray and black patterns in frames or receivers, and sometimes locks and hammers was not dirt, but rather what color case hardening had faded or "decomposed" into over time.

Others' mileage will, definitely.. vary...

I have used Dunlop stocks for a number of projects mostly after my old pard Steven Jensco retired from stock and barrel making. IMHO, I would consider the as 85% "pre carves' with most of the shaping and inletting and mortising 80-90% pre-done versus say a plank of American Black Walnut. They do require a minimum of gun building and wood working skills and tools to turn one into a finished gun.

Curt
Firearm Heretic

/

[KPavia]

Re: Restoring original muskets

Hallo!

I am a heretic on this, so I am not the best to answer the question as it is mostly "nonsensical' to be. BUT, it is the reality.

Intact "patina" IMHO, grew out of a belief, a while back among collectors and even museums, that a gun with patina must be, has to be, an original and not a fake or counterfeit. (Counterfeiting or Faking is a science and art amateurs NUG do not possess in creating a Believable Image.) A patina, no matter whether it is 150 years of oxidation, post WAr surplus use gaining dings dents, scratches, gouges unrelated to its War time service, fungus eaten outer wood stock, etc., make a gun more "valuable," more desirable, more collectible, more prestigious than one that has been properly cleaned of patina.

The extreme of this is entrenched so much that it makes for acceptable 'Farbery' as can be found in the 18th century. Most original 18th century guns often have environmentally "rusted" to a brown patina. Even though browning as a gun and gun furniture did not become popular until the 1790's at the earliest in 18th century reenacting and living history a gun was not correct unless it had a browned barrel and lock, etc.. One can pretty much date a custom-built longrifle built before the late 1990's based on its browning versus fire bluing or polished bare metal prevalent before the 1790's.

In my heresies, a gun correctly returned to its appearance when in use is exactly the same as restoring a rusted relic antique car. Obviously, it is a different Culture there, as its resale value, collectors' value, and prestige value are not "ruined" or "destroyed" or "history" is removed and lost when the car is restored to its new appearance and function.

Q: Why is a gun different??
A. Because it.. is.

:)

Such has changed over time. It was almost a universal fashion to strip and polish guns bright in the 1920's, 1930's, and 1940's in many circles. Several of the guns seen in Gettysburg or Harrisburg have been cleaned and polished bright.
Part of it was a lack of knowledge that the black ''dirt' in the metal was the remnants or traces of Period bluing, or that the cloudy gray and black patterns in frames or receivers, and sometimes locks and hammers was not dirt, but rather what color case hardening had faded or "decomposed" into over time.

Others' mileage will, definitely.. vary...

I have used Dunlop stocks for a number of projects mostly after my old pard Steven Jensco retired from stock and barrel making. IMHO, I would consider the as 85% "pre carves' with most of the shaping and inletting and mortising 80-90% pre-done versus say a plank of American Black Walnut. They do require a minimum of gun building and wood working skills and tools to turn one into a finished gun.

Curt
Firearm Heretic

/

That makes sense.

Is there a source for stocks that don't require gun building and wood working skills so I don't have to spend $250+ to learn how to carve?

[hireddutchcutthroat]

Re: Restoring original muskets

I think a lot of the patina business comes from trying to keep people from taking a buffer to a 150 year old gun.

[Scott Sheets]

Re: Restoring original muskets

Curt,
I think along the same lines you do. I see no point in letting an original weapon deteriorate. I want all of my originals to be functional and not look out of place if they were used in a LH. I am currently in the process of restoring an Enfield I picked up to new issue appearance. I got a great deal on a weapon with perfect 'patina' only to take it apart and realize it was a parts gun. As Curt mentioned, even patina doesn't make it right. I figured since it was already a collection of parts I might as well make it look new, or as close as possible.