English Cap Pouch Types

[Haversack]

Pards,
I have searched the forums but was unable to find the answer that I was looking for. I apologize if I missed it somewhere. I have noticed that some vendors (Jarnagin and a couple of other mainstream vendors come to mind) offer a model of proclaimed "English" cap pouch (second photo) that is of a different design than the more typical model that was meant to be worn on the cartridge box belt (first photo). My question is simply this-is the second model correct for a wartime impression as an imported item? I seem to remember reading somewhere that it is a postwar model, though this could just be my imagination running away with me. Any and all help is appreciated.

[erik]

Re: English Cap Pouch Types

Your second example appears to be a confederate manufactured cap pouch recycled from returned ball bags as depicted on page 18 of "Suppliers to the Confederacy".
It actually appears to be a reproduction.
I will leave the heavy lifting to the experts and let David Burt and Craig Barry weigh in on this one.

Erik Simundson

[DBURT]

Re: English Cap Pouch Types

The simple answer is no. The second cap pouch was offered as an "Enfield Cap Pouch" by some vendors but is in fact - as Erik rightly says- is a CS manufactured type. The early cap pouches as used by the British army in the Crimea were small leather pockets which were attached to the tunic by a small metal ring. After studying Russian troops in the Crimea with the cap pouch worn on the shoulder belt over the overcoat, some Guards units started to sew their cap pouches onto their shoulder belts to stop having to fiddle under the overcoat for caps. In 1856/7 this belt mounted cap pocket was adopted by all the rank and file units.

Attached is a picture of an original cap pouch made by Hobson & Sons in 1855, as you can see it is totally different to the so-called "Enfield Cap Pouch" as offered by some sutlers. I haven't seen any evidence of these being used only the P56 type. The P56 cap pouch was used until the Snider rifle was introduced.
There are lots of pictures of CS soldiers wearing the P56 angled cap pocket. Some wearing it on their waist belts.

Dave Burt

[Haversack]

Re: English Cap Pouch Types

Thank you so much for the replies, gentlemen. They have definitely helped clear things up. I'll have to pick up a copy of both "Suppliers to the Confederacy" books once I get back to the states. And Erik, the second photo is indeed a reproduction. It was just the best photo I had available to demonstrate the style that I was inquiring about.

[BobRoeder]

Re: English Cap Pouch Types

Hello,

Since I'm in the process of putting together a set of English accoutrements - and after reading "Suppliers to the Confederacy I" and "Entrepot" - I actually had the same question regarding the reproduction "Enfield cap pouch".

Now, if it doesn't divert from the intention of the original inquiry, is there an original example of reproduced "English/Enfield cap pouch" in existence? IMO, the original "recycled" CS pouch shown on pg. 18 is patterned more like a common "square"-covered cap pouch than the repop in question. Basically, is the repop pouch in the second image above based in reality or fantasy?

[erik]

Re: English Cap Pouch Types

In order to resolve this we have to slip out of the English Import mode.
As David Burt rightly says the import cap pouches are the 1856 pattern that was intend for the pouch belt and therefore adopted to be worn on the waist belt to match the American method.
The ball bag did not suit the perceived methods and was discarded and sent back to be recycled as cap pouches by the arsenals.
This was a logical move which produced a practical item of good quality leather which suited the perceived methods in America.
While this is produced by a non approved vendor I have great respect for David Jarnigan's knowledge of English accoutrements and workmanship.
I would seek typology and provenance before adopting this item.

Erik Simundson

[BobRoeder]

Re: English Cap Pouch Types

Yes Erik, I agree with your response(s). Since the "mystery" cap pouch was brought up in the original poster's inquiry I decided it was not out of line to possibly find an answer to the "mystery" cap pouch's "typology and provenance". I never questioned the veracity of David Burt's or David Jarnagin's knowledge/research, etc. I do question the labeling of the "mystery cap pouch" (no matter who reproduces it) as "English" or "Enfield". Also, no matter from whom I purchase my equipment, uniforms, etc., I always do my own research to see if it is correct for my purposes. I neither encourage, nor discourage, anyone from purchasing/using this particular item, I just wanted to know the original source for the reproduction to satisfy my own curiosity especially after reading so much about British imported accoutrements.

Now, for anyone interested, I did a little searching in my "library" and found that there is an original cap pouch which the mystery cap pouch is most likely based on. In both sources it is attributed to the collection of Russ Pritchard. In the book "The Illustrated History of American Civil War Relics" by Sylvia & O'Donnell it is shown on page 214 and described as "Enfield pattern with 'CS' stamped in the flap, probably imported from England. This specimen has as single belt loop and a brass finial"; as Dave Burt pointed out above it is very likely a CS manufactured item. A color photo of the item is shown on page 230/231 in "Rebels & Yankees: The Fighting Men of the Civil War" William C. Davis, no description. So, an original example of the cap pouch in question does seem to exist in reality.

Cheers,

[Bob McDonald]

Re: English Cap Pouch Types

An original example of this pattern box currently on the web:

http://www.shilohrelics.com/cgi-bin/Display_Item.asp?104976

Cheers,

Bob

[teufelhund]

Re: English Cap Pouch Types

Is this style of cap pouch not the so called "Brunswick Rifleman's" cap pouch imported from England?