Pedersoli Lorenz

[KevinBarnes]

Re: Pedersoli Lorenz

I really wouldn't want to use an original in the field at events. Plus, no matter how great shape its in it will look like a 150 year old antique. Did they look 150 years old 150 years ago? Nope, they looked newer because they were. Is an antique gun is just as farby as one with "made in Italy" stamped on the barrel? You can take the "made in Italy" off but can you take off 150 years of patina? Would you even want to? Sure you can find a mint condition musket thats shiny like new but would you want to take that out of the house?

[Dbackfed]

Re: Pedersoli Lorenz

Using pieces that look 150+ years old isn't accurate. I carry several original muskets that are in a condition that is representative of muskets that would have been 10 to 30 years old at the time of the Civil War. At this time, a good Lorenz is scarce but usually come up once or twice a year when I am looking. I see no problem bringing out originals to show the public, especially for living histories. But this is a whole other topic.

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Pedersoli Lorenz

Hallo!

"You can take the "made in Italy" off but can you take off 150 years of patina?"

Yes. one can. Depending upon the wear and condition of the metal and wood, a firearm can be restored to an appearance more like when it was in use and not a 150+ year old antique or relic.
However, unlike old houses, cars, or furniture it is NUG considered a "mortal sin" to restore a gun as it kills its "collector" and "resale" value.
A classic example I use is my late friend's Sharps NM1859 Rifle. It's wood and metal were excellent and crisp, almost like new, but it had no "color" left to the bluing and case hardening (it was gray). He bought it for $3,000. He paid $500 to have it recolored to its factory look by a professional firearm restorer. After he died his wife sold it for $1,000, down from $1800.

For him it was not about the money, it was about having a Sharps Rifle that looked like it did in the CW and that was its value to him... not the loss he would have taken when he later sold it.

Curt

[KPavia]

Re: Pedersoli Lorenz

For him it was not about the money, it was about having a Sharps Rifle that looked like it did in the CW and that was its value to him... not the loss he would have taken when he later sold it.

Curt

That's how I feel. I'll gladly commit the mortal sin of restoring an old military firearm back to its "as issued" condition because I won't care what collectors or others would say considering that I'll only cease to own the firearm when I die. Let my descendants sell it for whatever they can get; they didn't pay for it so they come out on top.

But to stay on topic-
Some repros by Pedersoli may cost more than an original. But the supply of originals will dry up sooner or later which will drive their costs up to acquire one and eventually they'll be more expensive than a repro.
Besides, I think it's just a good thing overall to have more options out there as far as repro muskets are concerned regardless of the costs today.

[LeftCoastYank]

Re: Pedersoli Lorenz

Dave, I have a "W" stamp on the underside of the stock on my Lorenz maybe Mr.Barry could chime in on this and give a little info.? Thanks for the compliment Tyler, I have held several Lorenz rifles and I have to say mine compared to others is in fine shape.

Chad, I'm not sure what the "W" stamp is, but I've been told the "G" stamp is a marking the State of Georgia used. However, I'm not sure if this is "gun show wisdom" or sage advice...; )

[Craig L Barry]

Re: Pedersoli Lorenz

Reading over the last half dozen posts, I can't offer much insight. It is thought "G" in the stock flat of an Enfield usually meant an early war import by the state of Georgia especially when accompanied by the rack #s on the butt plate tang. I'm not positive that is what it meant on a M54 Lorenz, as I'm pretty sure it is not documented as to when the state of Georgia abandoned the practice or if they marked all imported arms for their troops in that way. The M-54 Austrian Rifles ("Lorenz") did not begin to arrive in appreciable numbers until later, when CS buyers made their way to the European mainland in their search for serviceable arms.

Further, we don't have figures from the Imperial Armory in Vienna like we do from Birmingham Small Arms Trade, S. Isaac Campbell & Co or Sinclair, Hamilton. As best as can be determined, Josiah Gorgas indicated in correspondence to Secy of War Seddon that 27,000 Austrian Rifles had been imported by the end of 1862. These had mostly seen some service with the Austrian Army in Italy and elsewhere before they were sold. In that sense, they may not have appeared all that different in terms of condition from an original in very good shape. As far as initials in the stock, at one time that question could probably be satisfactorily answered but 150+ years later, who knows how they were marked or when, and what any certain initials in the stock might have meant?

As far as the debate goes on use of original arms, we are unlikely to ever paint that into a corner here as there is a degree of individual preference as well as comfort level with the assumption of risk that does along with their continued field use for our purposes. This much can be said, if a reproduction is lost or damaged no part of "history" is lost with it and it is much more easily replaced than an original artifact.

[Grabenkater]

Re: Pedersoli Lorenz

I had to pass on a beauty outside Salzburg a few years ago. I could have purchased it for 300 Euro but shipping it home would have been just as expensive or not more. I regretfully passed on it.

[buckandball]

Re: Pedersoli Lorenz

Said with good conversational cheer... My two original Belgian conversion muskets (Pomeroy 1816 and 1840 respectively) look as damn good as my Euroarms P53 looked after the 125th events and all the farb fests we did in between national events back then. To this day, modern made accurate long arms is the critical flaw in a hobby that we otherwise agonize over if a canteen had twine or chain holding the cork, of the strap was leather or cloth, if one's boots really are representative of the theater one is portraying, if the fabric is 100% wool or has some synthetic in it, etc etc. Meanwhile we are saddled with long arm reproductions that are "almost" right, but never quite are. I'm not talking the defarb of markings and dates. But stock contours and lines, barrel weights. Accurate profiles of of hammers and sights. Hell, even the sights remotely shooting where the ball ends up when you live fire. We make this concession on long arms because this is one thing we can't (easily) make on our own (and of course continue to agonize over those issues we can directly influence).

I have always wondered "how dang hard can it really be to truly reproduce these things accurately..."? Even with tells to differentiate from an original.

So to use an original... I used to think that was nuts when I was a high school kid getting deep in the hobby at the 125th of Perryville (frozen canteens, still remember...) and believed so because that's what I was told. Now I think... so what? I'm not dragging it behind a wagon over gravel. I treat my original and reproduction long arms in the field as well as I treat my weapons that Uncle Same tends to offer me from time to time. If my 1840 needs to be put in a vacuum sealed vault for safe keeping, then perhaps so do all the CMP 1903s and M1 Garands out there...

I do agree it is a dubious proposition that when the original being carried looks like a worn antique or is mechanically suspect... but there are plenty of original muskets out there that can be afforded and look damn good, you just have to spend a lot (a lot) of time finding them, or, in my case, get really lucky twice. When people misspell Pomeroy on gunbroker and title the auction as nothing else, it is amazing how cheap things end up being... Or the original P53 bayonet I stumbled upon for $50 because the title was typo'd as "Endfield bayonet"...

I digress...

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Pedersoli Lorenz

Hallo!

To make a horrible analogy... reproduction firearms are a self-inflicted wound.

We have less-than-authentic firearms because we have taught the Italian industry how to treat us. And, that will line up decade after decade and eagerly buy what they offer with little more than a few voices in the wilderness.

Accurate or "authentic" reproduction firearms have existed in a "parallel universe" (read as the N-SSA) longer than the reproductions, but with few rare exceptions likely due to lack of knowledge of their existence AND a reluctance to pay 2-3 times what the cost of an Italian import was/is... even the "Authentic Wing" of the Civil War Community has (and continues to) set high standards for kit but low standards for firearms whether M's, RM's, R's, Carbines, or Revolvers.

In the "N-SSA" universe there are "custom-builts" made from restored or quality condition original parts and/or reproduction-original parts done to exacting "specs and measurements." But, the cross-overs between Skirmishing and Reenacting have been very, very small.

Curt

[Craig L Barry]

Re: Pedersoli Lorenz

That did not used to be the case, but it is certainly true now. Bill Adams wrote something about that in the foreward to The Civil War Musket: A Handbook for Historical Accuracy back in 2006. I think the wording he used to describe the different values of skirmishers vs re-enactors was "a clash of cultures."

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Pedersoli Lorenz

Hallo!

It is an interesting 'clash" for sure. I would expect reenactors/living historians to have set a higher standard or bar for repro firearms than the competitive shooters of the N-SSA.

NOTHING against the N-SSA, just looking at apples and oranges.

I would be remiss, perhaps... not to mention that 'we" have made some glacial progress. The new "generation" of Enfields shows that the Italians have listened to "us" a bit.

Curt

[David Fox]

Re: Pedersoli Lorenz

Apologies for a tad of nit-picking, but Italian firearms manufactured for us aren't "reproductions", they're more or less replicas. Reproductions are arguably made by the likes of Romano; weapons that would pass the scrutiny of a Federal or Confederate inspector and interchange in their parts with originals.

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Pedersoli Lorenz

Hallo!

They may scratch their heads a bit at Romano's .50 center fire Spencers. :) :) :)

Curt

[David Fox]

Re: Pedersoli Lorenz

One plus for an Italian Lorenz replica: at least the European mystery wood might be correct!

[wajohnson12]

Re: Pedersoli Lorenz

Any updates on this reproduction?