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**Jimmayo** · 08-31-2016, 11:54 AM

Re: looking for primary source for the "27,574 muskets picket up at gettysburg"

Did you try contacting the GB park historian. Never hurts to try.

**thomas aagaard** · 09-27-2016, 12:52 PM

Re: looking for primary source for the "27,574 muskets picket up at gettysburg"

The reply I got

We believe the origin of these most commonly cited statistics were based on a newspaper article published in the January 22, 1867, edition of the Adams Sentinel newspaper, which stated that an official report had been released noting the number of guns picked up on the Gettysburg battlefield totaled 27,524 of which 24,000 were loaded. One half of these had two loads each remaining unfired, one-quarter had three loads, and the remaining 6000 had up to ten loads apiece, etc.: “Many were found having two to six bullets over one charge; in others the powder was placed above the ball. One gun had six cartridges with paper untorn. In one Springfield rifle, twenty-three separate and distinct charges were found, while one smooth-bore musket contained twenty-two bullets and 60 buckshot rammed in promiscuously.” (Adams Sentinel newspaper, Gettysburg, PA, January 22, 1867)

The Adams Sentinel article is most likely the source of numbers repeated in books about Gettysburg. Unfortunately we have not been able to locate any original “official report” the article refers to, though it was most likely based on Major T. S. Laidley’s article in the United States Service Magazine, January 1865, which you also mention. I’m not aware of any additional research into the sources Laidley used for his article but it must have been based on ordnance reports available to him by war’s end. As you note, the report filed by Captain John Edie published in Volume 27, Part 1 of the Official Records denotes the numbers of weapons (24,854) and accoutrements turned in specifically to the Washington Arsenal. Evidently there were additional small arms taken from the field of Gettysburg or other nearby battle sites after Edie’s report was filed, including those events during the retreat to the Potomac River, that later wound up in either Washington or one of the other arsenals for rehabilitation.

The number 37,854 is simply a misprint.

I also learned that Major T. S. Laidley worked in the ordnance department and was in a position to know the real numbers.

**Pvt Schnapps** · 12-14-2016, 09:30 AM

Re: looking for primary source for the "27,574 muskets picket up at gettysburg"

Laidley was chief of the Frankfort Arsenal and in charge of, among other things, gearing up government production of ammunition for breech-loading rifles and carbines.

The original source for the 27,574 number was apparently an 1864 report of the Chief of the Bureau of Ordnance, Navy Department, cited here in a "Communication Addressed to the Joint Committee on the Conduct of the War" in 1865 by Norman Wiard. This is the third edition of a set of four pamphlets composed originally in 1863:

Communication Addressed to the Joint Committee on the Conduct of the War,upon the Subject of Great Guns

https://books.google.com/books?id=M7QtAAAAYAAJ&lpg=RA1-PA12&ots=NmJ_aoaD-t&dq=%22of%20the%20whole%20number%20received%20(27%2C574)%22&pg=RA1-PA12#v=onepage&q=%22of%20the%20whole%20number%20received%20(27,574)%22&f=false

The official report of the examination of the arms collected upon the battle-field of Gettysburg states, that "of the whole number received (27,574) we found at least 24,000 of these loaded; about one-half of these contained two loads each, one-fourth from three to ten loads each, and the balance one load each. In many of these guns from two to six balls have been found, with only one charge of powder. In some the balls have been found at the bottom of the bore with the charge of powder on top of the ball. In some, as many as six paper regulation calibre, 58 cartridges have been found, the cartridges having been put in the guns without being torn or broken. Twenty-three loads were found in one Springfield rifle-musket, each load in regular order. Twenty-two balls and sixty-two buckshot, with a corresponding quantity of powder all mixed up together, were found in one percussion smooth-bore musket. In many of the smooth-bore guns, model of 1842, of rebel make, we have found a wad of loose paper between the powder and ball, and another wad of the same kind on top of the ball, the ball having been put into the gun naked. About six thousand of the arms were found loaded with Johnson & Dow's cartridges; many of these cartridges were about half-way down in the barrels of the guns, and in many cases the ball end of the cartridge had been put into the gun first. These cartridges were found mostly in the Enfield rifle-musket."�Report of the Chief of Bureau of Ordnance, Navy Department. 1864.

In retrospect there are a couple of things that seem a little funny about a number that has gained such currency over the years. As noted, the number of weapons examined doesn't match the number actually reported as collected, though several digits do -- enough to suspect a misprint in one or the other. Further, a very precise number turns vague when it comes to saying just how many weapons were loaded multiple times. Beyond that, Laidley had an interest in promoting breech-loaders, Wiard was a private arms manufacturer, and the discussion in the "Communication" openly mentions inter-service rivalry on the question.

I do not know why the Navy was issuing a report on weapons recovered at Gettysburg -- maybe the facilities at the Washington Navy Yard were pressed into service to handle them, or that 1864 report was citing an even earlier one.

Anyway, I'd had the same question as you and this is as far as I've got in answering it...

**Pvt Schnapps** · 12-15-2016, 01:52 PM

Re: looking for primary source for the "27,574 muskets picket up at gettysburg"

I should add that some of the weapons loaded with two charges or multiple balls might have resulted from deliberate decisions. I haven't seen many descriptions of people doing this but two that stand out are Stendhal's account of his hero Fabrizio at Waterloo (in Charterhouse of Parma) and Sam Watkins in the civil war. Scott's Military Dictionary seems to OK the practice. Under the entry for "Arms" it states,

"When two oblong bullets are fired from the new rifle-musket, or altered rifle, with the ordinary service charge of 60 grains, they separate from each other and from the plane of fire about 4 feet in a distance of 200 yards. If the piece be held firmly against the shoulder, no serious inconvenience will be felt in firing this increased charge; the only precaution necessary to be observed in aiming, is to give the barrel greater elevation than for the single bullet, in the proportion of 6 feet for 200 yards. In cases of emergency, firing with two bullets might be effectively employed against masses of infantry and cavalry, if the distance does not exceed 300 yards."

**rbruno** · 12-16-2016, 09:06 AM

Re: looking for primary source for the "27,574 muskets picket up at gettysburg"

Most of these sources are war time reports or reports just at the close of the war. Is the suggestion that the number was fabricated from the very beginning or is this a case that some of the original documents that led to the totals being reported are lost to time?

**Pvt Schnapps** · 12-17-2016, 02:11 PM

Re: looking for primary source for the "27,574 muskets picket up at gettysburg"

The latter. I don't think that the number of weapons recovered was fabricated, but it may have become garbled.

Beyond that, I think that the usual conclusions I've seen associated with this number -- that half the loaded weapons were inoperative, providing further proof of the dangers of the Ordnance Department's conservatism -- should be taken with a grain of salt for several reasons:

1) Laidley and Wiard both had reasons for exaggerating the defects of muzzle-loaders. They didn't have to, because the advantages of breech-loaders were universally accepted by the end of the war, but I think their own positions nudged them in that direction and may have led them to hasty conclusions.

2) The total number of weapons recovered is pretty precise, but beyond that it gets vague -- "about one-half," "another fourth," "many." This suggests that there never was an actual count of these categories, so I get a little queasy about any definite conclusion drawn on that basis.

3) French novelists of the 19th century aren't a great source for civil war combat, but there is a possibility that many weapons loaded with more than one round were deliberately loaded that way. I'd be interested if any one else has come across anything along these lines, but the fact that "many" were loaded with multiple bullets but only one charge of powder hints that this was deliberate rather than the result of the same kind of panic that would lead a soldier to just keep ramming whole charges.

4) The conservatism of the Ordnance Department has been a favorite trope since the war itself and got a lot of play in Shannon's "Organization and Administration of the Union Army" -- an excellent but at the time revisionist work that has been cited uncountable times since its initial publication in 1929. But I think the criticism is overdone. Whatever Ripley or Scott may have said about buck and ball, the Department's contracts for 1861 show that as early as July 5, 1861 they were contracting for private production of Springfield rifle-muskets and by the end of the year they had contracts out for 970,000, plus more than 200,000 Enfields. The contracts for foreign weapons were largely for .69 caliber rifle-muskets, so the real case seems to be that from the very beginning the Ordnance Department tried to get as many state-of-the-art weapons as they could, only ordering the foreign arms so they could quickly get something in the hands of the avalanche of new recruits. Breech-loader contracts were in smaller numbers, but here the problem was the sheer number of models available, many of which would prove impracticable under field conditions, and the time it took to produce them.

5) Shannon and subsequent historians criticize the Ordnance Department for not arming the US Army with breech-loading repeaters from the start. But in addition to the problems getting the guns, production of standard copper cartridges presented another challenge. In a report of August 4, 1864, Ramsay stated that Laidley had prepared plans for facilities to make 20 million, then 100 million, such cartridges a year. This is an enormous number, but still falls far short of the billion paper cartridges the US made: http://ebooks.library.cornell.edu/cg...=root;size=100

Sorry to go on, but I've been intrigued by the numbers and logistics for a while...

**thomas aagaard** · 12-18-2016, 05:41 AM

Re: looking for primary source for the "27,574 muskets picket up at gettysburg"

As mentioned in my original post, I made similar topics on other forms including civil war talk.

Attention Required! | Cloudflare

http://civilwartalk.com/threads/loaded-muskets-picked-up-after-the-battle-of-gettysburg.121524/page-4

Partly as a reaction to the topic and the debate it gave, Craig L Berry wrote a column about it in the april 2016 edition of "Civil war News"

And this have resulted in some new information

This is a copy of a post made by "Craig L Berry" on the civil war talk forum.
(posted with his permission)
------------------------------------

This is interesting...it came to both Joe Bilby and me in a "letter to the editor" which will appear in the next issue of Civil War News:

To the Editor:
I’m a long-time researcher of U.S. Army Ordnance Department records at the National Archives, and for the last ten years I have been focused primarily on Civil War records, but I am new to the Civil War News. At a recent show in Richmond, I picked up a copy of your November 2016 issue (Vol. 42, Number 10) and was quite impressed. However, that is not my purpose in writing. In Mr. Bilby’s column in that issue, I noticed a section titled “Provenance of Gettysburg loaded muskets,” in which Mr. Bilby discussed an April 2016 “Watchdog” column by Craig Barry. I have not seen Mr. Barry’s article so I don’t know specifically what he said, but based on Mr. Bilby’s statements the substance of it was regarding a: “much-repeated account of the 24,000 muskets, many of them with a number of loads in their barrels, retrieved from the field at Gettysburg.” Mr. Bilby noted that neither he nor Mr. Barry had found any official provenance for the story. Well, as a matter of fact, I can help with that problem. On seeing Mr. Bilby’s article I recalled seeing something on this topic, did a search of my material, and found the following notes:

1/4/1864, Record Group (RG) 156, Entry (E) 20, Volume 40, Letter W28 of 1864: Capt. Benton at Washington Arsenal for - warded a report of Master Ar - morer J. Dudley re the condition of small arms received from the battle fields. 1/4/1864, RG156, E201, Report #376: Master Armorer J. Dudley reported to Capt. Benton on small arms received from battlefields. He based his report on the arms taken from the Gettysburg battlefield. Of the number received (27,574), at least 24,000 of them were loaded. About one half contained two loads each, one forth contained from three to ten loads each and the rest had only one load. Some of the guns had two to six balls with only one charge of powder, and in some cases, the ball was at the bottom of the barrel with the powder charge on top of it. In some arms, as many as six paper cartridges were found whole – not having been torn open. Twenty-three loads were found in one Springfield rifle, each load being in regular order. Twenty-two balls and sixty-two buckshot with a corresponding quantity of powder, all mixed up together, were found in one percussion smooth-bore musket. Mr. Dudley also stated: “About six thousand of the arms were found loaded with Johnson’s & Dow’s cartridges, many of these cartridges were found about half way down in the barrels of the guns, and in many cases, the ball end of the cartridge had been put into the gun first. These cartridges were found mostly in the Enfield Rifle Musket.” About 1,000 of all muskets found, Union and Confederate, had stocks broken at the wrist with the butt of the stocks completely gone. One hundred and thirty-six arms of different kinds had been marred by shot; in many the ball had gone through the barrel or other parts had been shot away. Many barrels were burst, almost always near the barrel from having the muzzle clogged by mud or having left the tampion in place. Mr. Dudley noted that barrels of American manufacture were superior to those of the Enfields and Austrian weapons in both material and workmanship."

Without knowing where to look, this report would be difficult to find. One would expect it to have been filed in the letters received by the Chief of Ordnance, which is Entry 21 in the Chief of Ordnance records (Record Group 156), and the first set of notes above supports that assumption, for Entry 20 contains the registers for Ordnance Department letters received. But for some unknown reason, the Ordnance Office in - stead filed the report with “Reports of Experiments,” which the National Archives have cataloged as Entry 201.

Charles Pate

**Pvt Schnapps** · 12-18-2016, 05:19 PM

Re: looking for primary source for the "27,574 muskets picket up at gettysburg"

That's a wonderful find! Thanks for sharing it -- the bit about muzzles bursting is interesting too in light of current controversies on repro firearms.

I did a follow up after my post to see if I could find anything in the ORs about multiple loads in muskets. There might be more mentioned somewhere but I could only find this bit of advice from a CS officer during the fighting around Petersburg:

Official Records, I/40/PIII, p. 740

Petersburg, B. R. Johnson, July 16, 1864: “... at short range, such as you have for some parts of your line upon this work, guns loaded with two bullets would perhaps have a telling effect, as the balls on their descending curve would drop into their trenches....”

**Craig L Barry** · 12-19-2016, 07:30 PM

Re: looking for primary source for the "27,574 muskets picket up at gettysburg"

Yeah, I thought it was a great find, too. Another interesting thing that we batted around on the other forum was that last line " Mr. Dudley noted that barrels of American manufacture were superior to those of the Enfields and Austrian weapons in both material and workmanship."

I surmised that it was a bit of latent provincialism because the material, specifically the iron ore used in those "superior barrels of American manufacture" was largely imported to the United States from Birmingham England. The Midlands iron was considered of higher quality than domestic ore and it worked better in the barrel rolling machinery. The documentation for that tidbit is in that same Civil War Talk post (if interested). I don't know if this little secret about where the iron used by Springfield Armory came from is widely known or not, but I came across it in the course of researching other topics.

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