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  • Name that Fiearm

    Folks,

    Meet Alexander Zang, Co. H, 39th NYSV. He's wearing a private purchase sack coat, 1855 Rifleman's Belt, and a sword bayonet. It's interesting to note he's wearing his cap pouch on the left rather than the right.



    I'm having a tough time identifying what firearm he is carrying. The nose cap looks like an 1842 Springfield, but the weapon is too short. The Mississippi Rifle had a similar nose cap, but the rifle sling was much closer to the nose cap than the one in the picture. Did the 1855 Springfield come in a carbine? Even if it did, the nosecap incorrect. As for foreign imports, the front of the stock is too long to be a Garibaldi musket.

    Any ideas would be appreciated.

    Thanks,

    Rob Carter
    Last edited by JustRob; 04-26-2004, 04:24 AM.
    Robert Carter
    69th NYSV, Co. A
    justrobnj@gmail.com
    www.69thsnyv.org

  • #2
    Re: Whitney Plymouth?

    I am most likely wrong but it might be a Whitney Plymouth .69 cal rifle. It was a two band nose cap similar to the 42 springfield and did use a saber bayonet.


    Brian Schwatka
    Brian Schwatka
    Co. K 3rd US Regulars
    "Buffsticks"

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Name that Fiearm

      Originally posted by JustRob
      Folks,

      Meet Alexander Zang, Co. H, 39th NYSV. He's wearing a private purchase sack coat, 1855 Rifleman's Belt, and a sword bayonet. It's interesting to note he's wearing his cap pouch on the left rather than the right.



      I'm having a tough time identifying what firearm he is carrying. The nose cap looks like an 1842 Springfield, but the weapon is too short. The Mississippi Rifle had a similar nose cap, but the rifle sling was much closer to the nose cap than the one in the picture. Did the 1855 Springfield come in a carbine? Even if it did, the nosecap incorrect. As for foreign imports, the front of the stock is too long to be a Garibaldi musket.

      Any ideas would be appreciated.

      Thanks,

      Rob Carter
      Rob,
      I can't see the lock to be sure, but it looks like it could be an M1819 Hall breechloading flintlock rifle.

      Cordially,

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Name that Fiearm

        Originally posted by JustRob
        Folks,

        Meet Alexander Zang, Co. H, 39th NYSV. He's wearing a private purchase sack coat, 1855 Rifleman's Belt, and a sword bayonet. It's interesting to note he's wearing his cap pouch on the left rather than the right.



        I'm having a tough time identifying what firearm he is carrying. The nose cap looks like an 1842 Springfield, but the weapon is too short. The Mississippi Rifle had a similar nose cap, but the rifle sling was much closer to the nose cap than the one in the picture. Did the 1855 Springfield come in a carbine? Even if it did, the nosecap incorrect. As for foreign imports, the front of the stock is too long to be a Garibaldi musket.

        Any ideas would be appreciated.

        Thanks,

        Rob Carter

        Hi Rob, The image is reversed............everything is on the "other" side., but his sword was placed on the "right" side to compensate for the reversal of the image. Joe
        Joe Madden
        13th New Hampshire Vols.
        Co. E
        Unattached

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Name that Fiearm

          Originally posted by 13thnhv
          Hi Rob, The image is reversed............everything is on the "other" side., but his sword was placed on the "right" side to compensate for the reversal of the image. Joe
          The Sword bayonet and frog to hold it is sewn onto the 1855 rifleman's belt in a fixed position, so I don't really see how he moved it to the opposite side. Plus, to remove the buckle on this belt to reconfigure it is a pain in the butt, at the least...
          ~ Chris Hubbard
          Robert L. Miller Award Winner No. 28 May, 2007
          [url]www.acwsa.org[/url]

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Name that Fiearm

            I was just going by the way the coat is buttoned......the traditional "women's" direction...........
            Joe Madden
            13th New Hampshire Vols.
            Co. E
            Unattached

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Name that Fiearm

              It could be a number of similar arms but the piece in question is very likely a US Model 1847 Miners & Sappers Musketoon:

              It looks very similar to the M1847 Artillery musketoon (pictured) but the M&S used a saber bayonet similar to that pictured.



              Last edited by Yellowhammer; 04-26-2004, 02:56 PM.
              John Stillwagon

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Name that Fiearm

                Hallo Kameraden!

                Although the "important details" are obscured, I would have to agree that is a Whitney Model 1861 Percussion Navy ("Plymouth") Rifle based upon the upper band/nosecap and lower band with swivel. (Basically a "pirated" or basic copy of a French "carabine a tige.")

                And yes, there was a U.S Rifled Carbine, Model 1855, but that is not it.
                Imagine an iron mounted (with the exception of a brass nose cap) M1841 Rifle (well actually a M1847 Musketoon) with a cut down, 3/4 length, stock and a swivel-linked ramrod for cavalry. Being a cavalry arm, it was never designed to take a bayonet. And was the only M1855 series without a Maynard priming system.

                The image is reversed as already noted (see the button line). The "rifleman's belt" is not put on upside down- the bayonet frog was stitched to the belt. Plus, the sliding brass keepers for the knapsack hooks have their "holes" on the top in their proper position- although he has slid them closer to the buckle.

                Curt-Heinrich Schmidt
                Curt Schmidt
                In gleichem Schritt und Tritt, Curt Schmidt

                -Hard and sharp as flint...secret, and self-contained, and solitary as an oyster.
                -Haplogroup R1b M343 (Subclade R1b1a2 M269)
                -Pointless Folksy Wisdom Mess, Oblio Lodge #1
                -Vastly Ignorant
                -Often incorrect, technically, historically, factually.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Name that Fiearm

                  To my knowledge the 39th NY had Enfields and French Liege rifles.
                  Robert Johnson

                  "Them fellers out thar you ar goin up against, ain't none of the blue-bellied, white-livered Yanks and sassidge-eatin'forrin' hirelin's you have in Virginny that run atthe snap of a cap - they're Western fellers, an' they'll mighty quick give you a bellyful o' fightin."



                  In memory of: William Garry Co.H 5th USCC KIA 10/2/64 Saltville VA.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Name that Fiearm

                    39th NY ; Light French or French Liege rifles in .577 in the 63-64 period.
                    Johan Steele aka Shane Christen C Co, 3rd MN VI
                    SUVCW Camp 48
                    American Legion Post 352
                    [url]http://civilwartalk.com[/url]

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Name that Fiearm

                      Gents,

                      Given the approx. length from the front band to the muzzle and the sling swivel on the rear band my opinion is that it a "Brazilian Minie rifle".

                      My opinion only.

                      Mark Latham
                      Mark Latham

                      "Mon centre cède, impossible de me mouvoir, situation excellente, j'attaque." ~Ferdinand Foch

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Name that Fiearm

                        Hallo Kamerad!

                        A possibility for sure!

                        Although, the "tail" of the nosecap on a Brazilan "Light Minie" is more pointed, while the distance between the end of the ramrod capture and the upper front portion of the nosecap is shorter than on the Whitney?

                        Again, light and poor reference points on the image makes this fun...

                        Curt-Heinrich Schmidt
                        Curt Schmidt
                        In gleichem Schritt und Tritt, Curt Schmidt

                        -Hard and sharp as flint...secret, and self-contained, and solitary as an oyster.
                        -Haplogroup R1b M343 (Subclade R1b1a2 M269)
                        -Pointless Folksy Wisdom Mess, Oblio Lodge #1
                        -Vastly Ignorant
                        -Often incorrect, technically, historically, factually.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Name that Firearm

                          It is hard to say, but I think our man is holding a Belgian pattern 1842 short rifle.

                          Jon O'Harra
                          Jon O'Harra
                          Heartless Bastards Mess

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Name that Firearm

                            Thanks to everyone for their input. I had faith the folks on the forum would have something to contribute. I will continue to do research to find other photographs or research that can contribute to the identification.

                            A few questions:

                            The musket looks like a Whitney Plymouth Rifle in several aspect. However, the lower band in the picture appears to have a small piece projecting forward like the middle band on a '42 Springfield, which is different from a Plymouth Rifle. There is also the question of why a light infantryman would be carrying a Navy issue Plymouth rifle.

                            The 1847 Miners & Sappers Musketoon looks similar to the musket in the photo, but the nosecaps differ. Zang's musket doesn't have a two-band upper band like the M&S musketoon.

                            A French "carabine a tige" is a plausible choice. The 39th NYSV/Garibaldi Guard were supposed to be a Bersaglieri-style regiment of light infantry. The Bersaglieri carried carbines witha sword bayonet and a spike on the stock for close combat. Here's a picture from the Crimea Campaign.


                            Assuming the carabine a tige is similar to the Belgian Liege musket, the Liege sounds like a possibility as well. Thanks also for the references to ordinance records. If you have a specific citation, I would appreciate it.

                            All this, of course, leads to another question. What currently reproduced musket looks most like a Belgian Liege? Adding to the complexity of the question is the near universal prohibition on two-band musket at reenactments.

                            Thanks for the input.
                            Robert Carter
                            69th NYSV, Co. A
                            justrobnj@gmail.com
                            www.69thsnyv.org

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Name that Fiearm

                              Hallo Kameraden!

                              Indeed then... the Ordnance Reports fill in what the image cannot..
                              Likely then a French Model 1859 Short Rifle or a Belgian contract variant of the same.

                              The "Plymouth" is something of a French Model 1859 Short Rifle (Pondir) copy... ;-)
                              While a vast majority of Whitney "Plymouth" rifles were used by the Navy, they do occassionally show up in the Army- as with the 39th OVI (although some argue that the reference/quote "... Whitney rifles with bayonets" actually meant the U.S. M1841.

                              "What currently reproduced musket looks most like a Belgian Liege?"

                              None.

                              IMHO, one would need a minty original or go the route of restoring one to its CW appearance and condition.

                              Curt-Heinrich Schmidt
                              Curt Schmidt
                              In gleichem Schritt und Tritt, Curt Schmidt

                              -Hard and sharp as flint...secret, and self-contained, and solitary as an oyster.
                              -Haplogroup R1b M343 (Subclade R1b1a2 M269)
                              -Pointless Folksy Wisdom Mess, Oblio Lodge #1
                              -Vastly Ignorant
                              -Often incorrect, technically, historically, factually.

                              Comment

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