Ammunition Crates

[Scott]

Moderators I'm not sure if this is the right place to put this so feel free to move it..

I was wondering about the correct size for a .69 cal. wooden ammo arsenal box... I am considering on making them and was curious as to the proper demensions, I have viewed original .58 cal. boxes from the St. Louis arsenal but have yet to find originals for the .69 cal.

Thanks in advance,

Scott Davolt

[hardtack1864]

Re: Box sizes

Look up the yellow hammer rifles mess and check under articles. They have demensions for a 69 cal. box.

[1stMaine]

Re: Box sizes

Comrade,
The dimensions depend upon the type of round. Do you want to make packing boxes for Round Ball, Elongated Ball, or Buckshot?
respects,

[Scott]

Re: Box sizes

I could not locate the yellow hammer rifle's page... do you have a web address?
I am specifically looking for the .69 cal. round ball....

Scott Davolt

[Clark Badgett]

Re: Box sizes

I can help you here. Let's see what the Ordnance manual called for. Keep in mind that these are all interior diminsions.

For .69 elongated ball- 14" long, 12" wide and 7" high. Color of box is lead (dark gray) weight when full of 1000 live cartridges is 135 lbs

For .69 round ball- 15.5" long, 11.75" wide and 6.75" high. Color of box is blue and weight when full is 107 lbs.

For buckshot and buck and ball- 15" long, 10.75" wide and 6.38" high. Color of box is red. No weight is listed.

[Bill]

Re: Box sizes

Scott,

I took the exterior mesurements from a .69 cal. round ball box I found at a relic shop. The box was 12 1/4" wide, 17" long, and 8" tall, including both the bottom and top. (The top was missing, so I added the thickness of the bottom to my measurement) The handles were 1 1/2" wide, and were 2" from the open top. They were 3/4" thick and attached to the box with three clinched nails

The wood in the box was between 3/4" and 7/8" thick. Planed on the outside, and rough on the inside. The corners were rabbited, not finger jointed. The bottom of the box was attached with eight iron screws, three on each side, and one in the middle of each end.

The Markings were done using a 3/4" Roman stencil, using white paint and were as follows:

1000
CARTRIDGES
(handle)
MUSKET, CAL. .69
SPH 1861

Only the very bottom of the number 1000 showed on the box. Most of the number had been stenciled on the missing top. The information was centered on the box. The computer won't let me show that. It keeps moving my diagram to the edge of the page. SPH was at one edge, while 1861 was at the other edge.

The box was painted OD green, rather then the lead color specified in the Ordnance Regulations. I can't tell you which arsenal produced this box, since that information would have been stenciled on the inside of the missing top.

I hope this helps,
Bill Rodman

[Clark Badgett]

Re: Box sizes

Bill,
I have heard of the .69 boxes being painted green as well. I've also heard of the boxes being rabbited instead of dadoed. The exterior dimentions you stated seem to correspond to those in the manual except the length. did you include the handle in the overall length?

[Bill]

Re: Box sizes

Bill,
I have heard of the .69 boxes being painted green as well. I've also heard of the boxes being rabbited instead of dadoed. The exterior dimentions you stated seem to correspond to those in the manual except the length. did you include the handle in the overall length?

Clark,

For round ball, the length is about right. The inside length was listed as 15 1/2". Two pieces of 3/4" wood would give you a 17" long box. I did not include the handle in my measurement. I did make a mistake in my earlier post. The Ordnance Manual said the .69 Minnie Ball box was lead color. The round ball box was supposed to be blue.

Bill

[1stMaine]

Re: Box sizes

Comrades,
Although the manual calls for dove-tailed joints, I too have seen other forms of construction, including simple butt-joints. I would, however, caution against producing non-spec items for general useage. Although some boxes were of non-standard construction or finish, those should be reserved for specific times and places associated with those items, unless we can show wide-spread useage of those types. Better to err on the side of caution than to make up some boxes that may be, in fact, the exception rather than the rule.
That some boxes were painted other colors than what was called for is understandable, especially in the early years of the war. Trying to ramp up production to unheard of levels must have been a nightmare for the arsenals and contractors. Imagine those fellows of the Mexican war period who, at most, saw maybe 20,000 men in an army. Now they've got to produce arms and clothing for armies of 100,000 men, and distributed across the country.
It's amazing not how well they did it, but that they did it at all.
respects,

[slickdogshep]

Re: Box sizes

Dimensions and pictures.

http://yellowhammerrifles.tripod.com/ammobox.htm

[Clark Badgett]

Re: Box sizes

Very interesting. This makes me wonder if Federal arsenals started using screws to attach the handles with. Makes more sence than using clinch nails, but then again I don't think they were caring if these boxes lasted beyond the battle where they were issued.

[Bill]

Re: Box sizes

Comrades,
Although the manual calls for dove-tailed joints, I too have seen other forms of construction, including simple butt-joints. I would, however, caution against producing non-spec items for general useage. Although some boxes were of non-standard construction or finish, those should be reserved for specific times and places associated with those items, unless we can show wide-spread useage of those types. Better to err on the side of caution than to make up some boxes that may be, in fact, the exception rather than the rule.
That some boxes were painted other colors than what was called for is understandable, especially in the early years of the war. Trying to ramp up production to unheard of levels must have been a nightmare for the arsenals and contractors. Imagine those fellows of the Mexican war period who, at most, saw maybe 20,000 men in an army. Now they've got to produce arms and clothing for armies of 100,000 men, and distributed across the country.
It's amazing not how well they did it, but that they did it at all.
respects,

Tim,

I don't pretend to be an expert on Ammo Boxes, but I have noticed that every arsenal, both North and South seemed to have their own unique way of marking boxes. If you match the stencils with the construction technique, I don't think you'd be far wrong.

[Fod]

Re: Box sizes

Some years ago I used Dean Thomas' book Roundball to Rimfire to answer the "must be dovetailed" question. Mr. Thomas has some great photographs from different arsenals in there. If I remember correctly, within a given timeframe, federal arsenals were pretty consistent in the joining method, dovetail, butted and nailed, box joint. Different arsenals changed at different times. Unfortunately, I no longer have the book or the notes, but I wanted to let you know where the answer could be found.

[hardtack1864]

Ammunition Crates

Does anyone know what color the lettering is supposed to be on a federal ammo box and should the bottom be painted on a federal ammo box? Also should the lettering be on the ends, sides, or tops of the box? Thank you.

[Fod]

Re: Ammo boxes?

The answers are: white, good question, and usually, maybe, maybe.

Really though, your best bet is to pick up a copy of the book "Roundball to Rimfire" by Dean s. Thomas. If it's not at your local library, request it through an interlibrary loan. The book has excellent photographs of a dozen or so boxes with and without lids from various US arsenals. Pick one that's right for your theater and time.

I haven't ever looked at the bottom of a box....I had always assumed it was painted the same color as the rest, but now I have to know.

I don't have it in front of me, but I recall some arsenals stencilled information inside the lid too. That surpised me....