Brown Bess Rebs?

[rebyank]

Pards,
I have wondered if a british brown bess flintlock would be correct for early war rebs. I imagine many were captured by americans during the rev war and 1812. What's the general concensus on using besses?

I'm really interested to hear the responses.

[RyanBWeddle]

Re: Brown Bess Rebs?

Pards,
I have wondered if a british brown bess flintlock would be correct for early war rebs. I imagine many were captured by americans during the rev war and 1812. What's the general concensus on using besses?

I'm really interested to hear the responses.

I think that the short land or india pattern besses would be too much of an ancient firearm by 1861. I have never come across them in any records, letters, OR, requisitions, documents, etc. Widespread usage should be avoided unless specific documentation can be provided....

I'm pretty sure that even usage by British forces of the early Victorian era was slipping:

"As the Army rapidly reduced in size after 1815, the India Pattern musket and the Brown Bess were gradually dropped in favour of the 1802 Pattern; the post-war Waterloo economies cause a wait of about 25 years before the issue of percussion weapons" from "Weapons and Equipments of the Victorian Soldier" by Donald Featherstone.

Maybe Curt could provide some info, but my vote is no.

[rebyank]

Re: Brown Bess Rebs?

A bess, espessialy captured or obtained during the war of 1812 would be no more ancient than a model 1795 springfield, or a very early 1816. britain was making them up until the 1842 enfields, so they weren't really that ancient.

[gdarrell]

Re: Brown Bess Rebs?

Ian,

I have to echo Ryan's response, to wit: in the absence of documentation appertaining to a specific event ... "Where's the beef?" - so to speak.

YOS,

[Fireyfishstick]

Re: Brown Bess Rebs?

The argument for the 1795 is that it was produced until roughly 1816. It was also a piece produced by or for the Gov. It would make sense that these may have still been hanging around in the arsenals just like the model 16's, since they were no more obsolete than the 16, and just as easily converted.

This is why I feel that your argument is going in the wrong direction.

You could better justify the use of a bess by sighting the use of shotguns and other personal / brought from home types of arms. I still feel like it would be very unlikely, it could have still been possible VERY EARLY.

I feel Ryan is right. Document it, or forget it. Its the only way to be sure and be right.

-Jason Asher

[Vuhginyuh]

Re: Brown Bess Rebs?

This is the only ''North American'' image I have seen that contains an arm with British style furniture, and it is clearly not Confederate and likely not CW. The use of these large bore muskets as fowlers is not unreasonable and having one tag along with an early Vol. is possible.

http://www.authentic-campaigner.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1049

With that aside, the only martial artifact found at the Fayetteville Arsenal site during a speedy pre-demolition arch survey in Nov. 1980 was a Bess style frizzen.

...but still no proof and not enough evidence to even consider carring one.

[JWolf]

Re: Brown Bess Rebs?

To give a short answer, yes and no.

Yes because on a small scale there was probably a few brown besses that were "over the fireplace" and were among the many different military "surplus" and civilian rifles/shotguns that were brought from home to the initial musterings of 1861.

No on a large scale since the Confederacy initially drew on siezed arms from the arsenals located in the south. The army had been producing its own arms since the early 1800s. The arsenals were stocked with the issue 1855 rifle and 1855 rifle musket, (the '61 Springfield not being widely issued until mid to late 1861), along with the 1841 Mississippi rifle. Then there were the flintlocks 1842 model rifle musket and 1822 model musket, some of which were converted to percussion in the late 1850s.

My guess would be that while there might have been some brown bess muskets their numbers in arsenals would have been pretty small with almost 50 years of US production. Especially since the arsenals were charged with supplying both the regular army and state militias so there was expected to be a sizeable supply of serviceable firearms for the militia to draw from if/when it had to be mobilized.

Jim Wolf

[Alamo Guard]

Re: Brown Bess Rebs?

You might have a better chance of seeing an Enfield P-39 than a flintlock for early war. The burning question being, how would a civilian come to have one to take to war, where would he get ammo for a prolonged engagement and lastly is there documentation that this weapon was ever used by the unit in question?
I have a P-39 myself and the only event it ever sees is Twiggs Surrender (and thats prewar, Feb 1861).
Botom line if you cant find the records of imports of English Flintlocks, leave em at home.

[Tom Ezell]

Re: Brown Bess Rebs?

Pards,
I have wondered if a british brown bess flintlock would be correct for early war rebs. I imagine many were captured by americans during the rev war and 1812. What's the general concensus on using besses?

They would be exceedingly uncommon. If you want to play Rev War or War of 1812, serve with Santy Anny, or hop over to Europe to walk with Wellington, a Brown Bess is a good deal. It's not a good deal for the CW, though...

Texas had a number of ex-Mexican Brown Besses and Baker Rifles (left over from the Texas Revolution and the Mexican War) that were pressed into service in early 1861. Most of these were pretty much in "junker" condition, still, it was all they had for a short time.

Tennessee was another state that was just about as poorly armed in the early days... Several references point to their being armed with old British "Tower muskets"... but this doesn't necessarily mean they were Brown Besses.

Tom

[Campjacksonboy]

Re: Brown Bess Rebs?

Pards,
I have wondered if a british brown bess flintlock would be correct for early war rebs. I imagine many were captured by americans during the rev war and 1812. What's the general concensus on using besses?

I'm really interested to hear the responses.

Joseph Boyce of the 1st Missouri Infantry describes the first Missouri at Shiloh as having "Old British Flintlock muskets." (They fought in the Peach Orchard by the way) He wrote of this in a series of Articles He wrote for the St.Louis Republican between the 1880's and 1920.

Interestingly ".75 cal British Muskets" show up in the supply reports for the First Missouri in 1862 and also in the 5th Missouri reports as late as 1864. The First Missouri Brigade was apparently issued enfields while in Grenada, Mississippi [In early 1863?]. They also got new uniforms and a visit from Jefferson Davis. Anyway intersting that they held on to those old british muskets.

There were different models of the Brown Bess type musket between the French and Indian war and the war of 1812. I have been told that a Rev. War brown bess was a little different than one used in 1812 but I'll let a gun expert outline the differences in a different post.

I believe a .75 cal British Musket" exists in the Museum at Grand Gulf, Mississippi. The Missourians were there from around February of 1863 until things started to happen with the Vicksburg Campaign. The weapon was plowed up in a field where trences once existed on the part of the field manned by Missouri troops. Unfortunately the entire lock and breach area of the weapon is missing. So it is impossible to decipher whether it was a flintlock, conversion, or cap but the stock, absence of bands, and over all look of the musket is similar in contour to a brown bess.

Sincerely,
Frank Aufmuth

[trippcor]

Re: Brown Bess Rebs?

If I am not mistaken, the Alabama unit that was first used as guards at Andersonville were issued brown besses. This was after they had their enfields taken away after they had fled during some battle. I really wish I could remember it better but I did that research back just before the movie came out and we where doing a living history down there.

I also have seen and heard of several examples of brown besses that were converted to civilian shot guns and percussion. I also think there may have been some documentation of Georgia home guard and militia using brown besses as well.

[billwatson]

Re: Brown Bess Rebs?

I second Tripp's observation, and I believe the authentication for Brown Besses at Andersonville came from an inspection report that found that not only were the guards armed with what are pretty much fourth class weapons, half of them wouldn't function and there weren't enough to equip all the guards;the weapons were rotated.

My recollection is that the old flintlocks went to George reserves -- beyond Joe Brown's Pets, the regiments dredged up off the very bottom of the barrel in 1864 and sent to Andersonville without tents, uniforms or decent weapons. Their lack of uniforms was one reason the military buttons off the Yankee prisoners become a form of coinage, the guards used them on their civilian coats to at least get some flavor of the military.

I think all of that came from the Andersonville book published around the time the movie was made in 1994 - Last Depot by Marvel? I dunno and I can't find it around here, but suggest it in the hopes someone else might pin it down.

Bill Watson
Stroudsburg, pa.

[hireddutchcutthroat]

Re: Brown Bess Rebs?

The argument for the 1795 is that it was produced until roughly 1816. It was also a piece produced by or for the Gov. It would make sense that these may have still been hanging around in the arsenals just like the model 16's, since they were no more obsolete than the 16, and just as easily converted.

This is why I feel that your argument is going in the wrong direction.

You could better justify the use of a bess by sighting the use of shotguns and other personal / brought from home types of arms. I still feel like it would be very unlikely, it could have still been possible VERY EARLY.

I feel Ryan is right. Document it, or forget it. Its the only way to be sure and be right.

-Jason Asher

Jason

Around 1842 the US government began going through all its flintlock arms to determine which were suitable for alteration to percussion. All the pre 1812 stocks were sold off as unservicable. I would think old foriegn made arms would have gone before this.


At anyrate a Bess would be my second choice after a shotgun or a stick for a earlywar militia impression.

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Brown Bess Rebs?

Hallo Kameraden!

To be overly brief...

While it can be fuzzy in US and CS Ordnance accounts whether they are speaking to the P1839 musket (most likely) when they speak to "Tower" or old ".75 muskets," IMHO, the India Pattern muskets had largely passed from the scene a few decades earlier.

In 1833, the British Ordnance system still had some 440,000 some post 1793 India Pattern (so-called 3rd Model "Besses") in stock, 18 years after production ceased.
A number of these, with the double throated/reinforced cocks, that came out in 1809, were sold to Mexico.

The US had declared "oldest" muskets as junk to be sold off as part of the post "Mex War" arsenal inventory, but later their agents purchased some in Britain in 1861.

The larger issue, IMHO, is in regards to the use of the Rev War era, New Short Land Pattern muskets, of 1769 (so-called 2nd Model 'Brown Bess')- a different beastie than the India Pattern.

I could possibly see such a Rev War mantle piece coming down for 1861 emergency service, but IMHO that would be stretching things with quite a "fiction," in the first place, and hardly PEC in the second.

Others' mileage may differ...

Curt-Heinrich Schmidt

[Yellowhammer]

Re: Brown Bess Rebs?

Guys,

I would like to throw out that we need to be a bit more careful with our terms in this thread. ".75 caliber British musket" does not necessarily mean Brown Bess. The British made several percussion models in that caliber.

We also tend to use the term "1816" generically to describe a family of US martial flintlocks that have significant differences.

Did some backwater Confederate hilljack march off to war in 1861 with an antique Brown Bess? Probably. For my money, if somebody wants to carry a non-standard type arm, I'd go with a shotgun or civilian rifle or fowler LONG before I would consider a Brown Bess.