M1861 Contract muskets

[FlaYankee]

M1861 Contract muskets

Hello all;
I have recently read through the book "The US Model 1861 Springfield Rifle Musket", by Hartzer, Yantz and Whisker. Excellent book, as it gave me the idea to purchase a Euroarms musket, and turn it into a contract musket. I have an 1862 Bridesburg lockplate that I will install.

I recall in the book "Introduction to CW small arms", in the chapter pertaining to Springfields, their was a small paragraph that showed an abundance of contract muskets to actual Springfields in an Infantry co. Even the numbers of contract muskets made show how common they were.

Anyway, I was wondering, how many of you who own repro 1861's, have done any work to make your muskets into various contract muskets;ie Bridesburg, Parker's Snow, Norfolk, Trenton, Etc. In my opinion, this would add more authenticity to ones impression, rather than having, just an out of the box 61 Springfield.
I look forward to your replies.. ;)

Kindest Regards;

[dahoude]

Re: M1861 Contract muskets

Here is my contract Springfield repro. This is an Armi Sport 1861, now turned into a William Muir contract model '61 made in 1863, William Muir and Co. was from Windsor Locks, CT. The first pic is the repro, the second pic is the original that was copied.

Regards;

Dan Houde

Hello all;
I have recently read through the book "The US Model 1861 Springfield Rifle Musket", by Hartzer, Yantz and Whisker. Excellent book, as it gave me the idea to purchase a Euroarms musket, and turn it into a contract musket. I have an 1862 Bridesburg lockplate that I will install.

I recall in the book "Introduction to CW small arms", in the chapter pertaining to Springfields, their was a small paragraph that showed an abundance of contract muskets to actual Springfields in an Infantry co. Even the numbers of contract muskets made show how common they were.

Anyway, I was wondering, how many of you who own repro 1861's, have done any work to make your muskets into various contract muskets;ie Bridesburg, Parker's Snow, Norfolk, Trenton, Etc. In my opinion, this would add more authenticity to ones impression, rather than having, just an out of the box 61 Springfield.
I look forward to your replies.. ;)

Kindest Regards;

[FlaYankee]

Re: M1861 Contract muskets

Here is my contract Springfield repro. This is an Armi Sport 1861, now turned into a William Muir contract model '61 made in 1863, William Muir and Co. was from Windsor Locks, CT. The first pic is the repro, the second pic is the original that was copied.

Regards;

Dan Houde

Wow! Thats a real beauty! Great pics and shows off the details real well.
Did you have any problem with the Armisport When you did this work?

Kindest regards;

[dahoude]

Re: M1861 Contract muskets

I cannot take credit for the work, only the idea. Our units home impression is that of the 149th NYSV out of Syracuse, NY. Several of us were invited to the home of a decendant of a member of the original 149th, a gent named Peter Foster. His ancestor was Isaac "Ike" Foster of Co. G. He has Ike's musket and upon viewing it I saw that it was a Muir contract Springfield, since we do a 149th NYSV impression I wanted to have it reproduced. I actually had Mr. John Zimmerman do the work for me. As far as I know he had no problems. I was very satisfied with the results. FYI, the 149th was originally issued Enfields at Elmira, NY, but were then issued contract Springfields later.

Regards;

Dan Houde
149th NYSV

Wow! Thats a real beauty! Great pics and shows off the details real well.
Did you have any problem with the Armisport When you did this work?

Kindest regards;

[FlaYankee]

Re: M1861 Contract muskets

Zimmerman does do some nice work!
I was considering have him do some of the markings on mine.

Kindest Regards

[ScottCross]

Re: M1861 Contract muskets

Harold,

Years ago, My pard and I took our reproduction Springfields and replaced the lock plate with original 1861 contract plates. Minor fine tuning was required, but we thought (like yourself) that contract rifles would have been more common. Everyone thought they were originals. I've always thought it was a good idea.

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: M1861 Contract muskets

Hallo Kameraden!

Not to comment on vendor/craftspeople, but...

"Zimmerman does do some nice work!"

Yes, he does. But he also does some questionable work. I have seen great work, and I have seen less than great work credited to Mr. Zimmerman.

A great deal depends upon ones needs, requirements, and expectations.

Regarding restampings, because steel stamps are quite costly, and the number and variety needed to offer a range of makers large, Mr. Zimmerman is using individual letter stamps.
A problem with individual stamps is that it is very difficult, if not impossible, to properly align, space, set, and strike them to look like a solid stamp. To a degree, like tombstones in an old cemetery, they are out of alignment and struck to different depths.

Another more exacting issue lies with using "generic" "V, P, Eaglehead" inspector's stamps as they were IDable to the individual contractors.

I might would suggest going through the M1861 "de-farb" posts for information on the concept, various processes, and pluses and minuses.

I have done several, reworking, reshaping, swapping original and Cross parts here and there, to try to make silk purses out of sow's ears. In fact, I have a 1862 Bridesburg plate waiting to be used myself. ;-)

Curt-Heinrich Schmidt

[FlaYankee]

Re: M1861 Contract muskets

Harold,

Years ago, My pard and I took our reproduction Springfields and replaced the lock plate with original 1861 contract plates. Minor fine tuning was required, but we thought (like yourself) that contract rifles would have been more common. Everyone thought they were originals. I've always thought it was a good idea.

Scott; I've seen only one other person do the same, and yep, he fooled me into thinking he had an original :confused_ ..

Kindest Regards

[hireddutchcutthroat]

Re: M1861 Contract muskets

I added an original Wm Muir lockplate to my old repro EuroArms several years back. As I remember it slipped right in with a minimal amount wood work. I did make new lockplate screws, but original screws are probably available.


I have included two photos of original lockplates. Notice the stamping, the overall quality, and precision of the lettering.

[FlaYankee]

Re: M1861 Contract muskets

Hallo Kameraden!

Not to comment on vendor/craftspeople, but...

"Zimmerman does do some nice work!"

Yes, he does. But he also does some questionable work. I have seen great work, and I have seen less than great work credited to Mr. Zimmerman.

A great deal depends upon ones needs, requirements, and expectations.

Regarding restampings, because steel stamps are quite costly, and the number and variety needed to offer a range of makers large, Mr. Zimmerman is using individual letter stamps.
A problem with individual stamps is that it is very difficult, if not impossible, to properly align, space, set, and strike them to look like a solid stamp. To a degree, like tombstones in an old cemetery, they are out of alignment and struck to different depths.

Another more exacting issue lies with using "generic" "V, P, Eaglehead" inspector's stamps as they were IDable to the individual contractors.

I might would suggest going through the M1861 "de-farb" posts for information on the concept, various processes, and pluses and minuses.

I have done several, reworking, reshaping, swapping original and Cross parts here and there, to try to make silk purses out of sow's ears. In fact, I have a 1862 Bridesburg plate waiting to be used myself. ;-)

Curt-Heinrich Schmidt

Heinrich;
In the Springfield book, there is actually a section concerning Eagle/VP markings of the different contractors. And boy, how different they look. Some excellent close up pictures of inspector cartouches as well.
I may end up doing most of the work myself, but we'll see as I have some more research to do.
Regards;

[Yellowhammer]

Re: M1861 Contract muskets

Not to pile on Mr. Zimmerman, but I need to add to Curt's comments from my recent experience.

I was recently given a Euroarms Enfield by a member of our unit and asked about the authenticity of the Zimmerman defarb. When I was through, my comrade asked me to take his musket from him and defarb the defarb. So far, I have replaced the lockplate, removed the gauge stamps with the intention having them remarked with correct stamps at the N-SSA Nationals next weekend, and sanded the cartouche off the stock and refinish the stock.

The lockplate, which I should post a picture of, was the standard incorrect Euroarms "London Armoury" plate to which Mr. Z added a "broad arrow", a "VR" under the crown, and crudely changed the date. (The removal of the previous mark was crude to say the least and the new stamping was uneven in both line and depth as Curt noted.) The gauge stampings were 80%-100% oversized compared to all the originals I have examined and I was unable to find a similar stock cartouche in any reference work.

I have seen MANY such examples of Mr. Zimmerman's uneven workmanship including a botched US M1841 Harpers Ferry conversion, several poorly stamped Harpers Ferry US M1842s, and a Colt Army that appeared to have the under barrel stamps removed with a horseshoe rasp. On the other side of the coin, I have personally examined several beautiful Hall rifles and carbines he has made. The man is extremely talented but certainly appears to apply those talents unevenly.

I can document all these instances with photographs if requested.

Bottom line, if Mr. Zimmerman wishes to continue to apply the moniker "master gunsmith" to himself, he needs to expend the necessary capital to upgrade his tools and stamps. As Curt noted, stamps are expensive to reproduce but if I were in the business of restamping muskets with "Harpers Ferry," you can be damn sure I'd have the proper stampings for the task.

Further, if Mr. Zimmerman wishes to cater to the authentic community, it is high time we started demanding more consistent work from him.

[FlaYankee]

Re: M1861 Contract muskets

John;
Thanks for the good advice. Like I said, I may end up doing the work myself.
Kindest Regards;

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: M1861 Contract muskets

Hallo Kameraden!

A few years ago a pard and I thought we would like to enter the "de-farb" business and started to have made and collect Springfield and Enfield barrel and stock stamps, as well as a hundred or so clothing and accoutrement stamps.
The hardened steel stamps, copied exactly from originals, were $200-300 each. So, add up the barrel stampings on a barrel.
But, IMHO, if it is one's business, we should be demanding MORE of those vendors that supply these services, and should also be less accepting of poorer quality and incorrect work.

A second issue with steel stamps lies with period iron and "mild steel" versus the "hard" modern steels. Even with a 5 Pound sledge, it is very hard (no pun) to strike that little stamp and have it imprint to depths commonly found on originals (not that all strikes are deep, but one can often find Enfield proofs struck so deeply the square shank of the stamp in evident).
To that end, my pard and I purchased a two (2) ton striking arbor (and wished we had gone to three ton). While a hardened lockplate can be softened and rehardened, it is hard (no pun) to do that on a barrel breech section.

Our "business" was never launched due to differences of vision between the two of us- he wanting to take it to mainstream events where I believed the market was not at, and I wanted to do it over the Net for those that wanted such things.

Curt-Heinrich Schmidt

[MassVOL]

Re: M1861 Contract muskets

I dont know if anyone has seen this but I stumbled across it and thought that anyone looking into contract rifles may find it useful.

http://www.beaufortonian.com/mocw/manufact.htm

p.s. scroll down and it has the different contract markings etc.

[ejn]

Re: M1861 Contract muskets

Has anyone had any experience with the Norris & Clement lockplate from S&S Firearms (http://www.ssfirearms.com/PP1863-64%20Spfld.htm, item 58S166B)? I've been thinking of creating a shooter to go along with my originals.

Ed