M1861 Contract muskets

[Clark Badgett]

Most accurate '61 Springfield

Ok comrades, which maker currently offers the most accurate, looks wise, straight out of the box '61 Springfield. I think this time around I'm going to buy a Springfield, instead of an Enfield. I would prefer answers which compare the repros to originals, and I realize that there is a weight issue with the new offerings. Another thing to keep in mind, I am a metal worker and machinist, and budding wood worker, so you can get detailed and technical in your usage of words. I'll more than likely understand.

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Most accurate '61 Springfield

Hallo Kamerad!

Having once been a custom-builder of the M1855 and "Richmond," IMHO...

The answer to your question is "Those makers who make copies of original parts (such as Cross lockplates) so one can build a true/exacting copy of the M1861.

However...

Regarding the Italian offerings:

Depends...
It appears that the Italian companies keep modifying and fiddling with their offerings over time, so it makes the question very difficult without having a "sutler" such as REGIMENTAL QUARTERMASTER down the street so one can run down and have a look at the most recent offerings on the wall!
NEITHER Euroarms or ArmiSport has done a good job of reprocating a M1861. Both are "simulated copies" and differ on the size and shape of parts and furniture, and both suffer from the barrel breeches being significantly beefed up. Some parts are anywhere from 5-15% oversize, and many poor in matching the shape and configuration of the originals (so swapping original or repro-original parts to correct mistakes is very hard.
Metal parts are finished modern buffing wheel mirror bright.
The wood is something Northern Italian (maybe beech?), and oiled. (Needs stripped and restained to simulate American Black Walnut but the grain is wrong when it shows.
The barrel alone on the ArmiSport was over 1.8 pounds MORE than the original. Most of that weight coming in the taper of the flats-to-round in the breech and middle.
Both barrels AP and EA lack barrel proof stamps, substituting BLACK POWDER ONLY and the bogus Italian stuff and Italian proof house stamps as well as a modern serial number.
The bolster on the AS is squarish instead of roundish.
The rear sight is poor. And the "leaves" undersized" so they fall loose and rattle.
The ArmiSport lockplate is thinner than the original, and is inletted too deep and is flush with the stock mortise.
Lockplate escutcheons are oversized.
The stock carries a different comb profile. And the stock is heavier, thicker, and its comb wider and blockier.
The stock is heavier than original stocks.
There are no inspector's cartouche or cartouches on the stock.
The forearm edge of the stock is wider and squarer than on the original.
Band springs have rounded instead of square ends, and are centered low instead of on the mid-line as compared to the originals. The pins of the springs are attached at a different angle than the originals.
The nosecap has the wrong profile.
Sling swivels on the AS are screwed on, on the original they are riveted on.
The tang of the buttplate on the AS is too curved, and the tang itself too short and of a slightly different shape than the original.
There is no "US" stamped on the tang.

I have only examined ONE EuroArms '61. It was trash.
Although it was not as oversized as the AS, it was "less of a copy." Meaning instead of cast furniture, it had a thin stamped buttplate (of a slightly different curve and tang angle, size and shape). The barrel bands were formed of a strip of thin steel bent and welded together to form a loop.
The hammer was of a similar, but not close profile to the original, with too small of a radius and too small of a nose. The lockplate was thinner, incorrectly inlet flush to the stock, and of a different shape than the original.
The lockplate stampings were bad.

I don't know the vintage of this EA '61, but I have heard the "brand new" ones are a teeny bit better.

Although the weight of the barrel and its configuration cannot be changed easily, IMHO, the AS still lends itself better to the "de-farbing" process. It also benefits from cosmetically correctly the as many of the faults I mentioned through gunsmithing, woodworking, and retrofitting repro-original parts. I use a "de-farbed' and highly "reworked," retrofitted one myself...
;-) I used a Cross lockplate marked 1862, an repro-original hammer, repro-orig bands, repro-orig nosecap, and Cross rear sight and leaves. It is restamped with copies of period stamps in all of the right places. Plus a lot of file and sandpaper work.... :-)

So, I am a little biased toward the AS to work on myself. But, I would like to get to a tent or a shop and lay out the two side-by-side to see what is the scoop NOW. (Or find some pards who would let me borrow four or five of each for a weekend...)

Basically, I say if you can see two side-by-side. Look at them. Heft them. Compare them. Then decide. If you plan on "de-farbing, reworking, and/or retroverting a '61, AS is in the "lead."
Both are poor copies in any event, and one choose from the LESSER OF TWO EVILS at best!!! :-(

Curt Heinrich Schmidt

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Poorly vented cone...

Hallo Kameraden!

Point of clarification....

The front sight on a M1842 is not a "bead," it is a brass ellipse or oval section with a flat bottom- like a slice from the edge of a brass coin, that was tapered on the sides, from bottom to top, to a thin line (in end view)

When I think of a "bead," I think of a shotgun or some CW revolver front sights.

Curt-Heinrich Schmidt

[hireddutchcutthroat]

Re: Most accurate '61 Springfield

Clark

You may just want to do what I did, build up a Springfield from original parts. The cost was only slightly more than a repro, but I did end up making several parts such as the rearsight myself.

[Matt Woodburn]

Re: Poorly vented cone...

Curt,

You are right about thinking of a bead as a small brass BB. So to clarify, in welding, the type of weld to apply to the front sight would be a bead weld of brass welding rod. That's what to ask for at the machine shop I mentioned in my original post. After building the bead to about 3/16 wide by 1/8 high on the sight, it will need to be filed down to proper shape and size. The shape and size of the steel sight before grinding it down should be the end goal with the brass. I used to own three machine shops with my family and it was very easy to modify/defarb guns then. I hope this clarification helps anyone trying to defarb the front sight on a 42.

Best Regards,

[KentuckyReb]

Re: Poorly vented cone...

Can and will do. Thanks for the tips, gentlemen. Don't know what I'd do without this board, or those on it willing to share their knowledge. Thanks much again.

[LibertyHallVols]

Musket Vendor - Experienced Opinions?

Anyone ever deal with these folks or hold one of their muskets in your hands?

http://www.jamesriverarmory.com

I've been interested in a well-made contract '61 and I'm curious about these folks..

Thanks,

[Minieball577]

Re: Musket Vendor - Experienced Opinions?

Anyone ever deal with these folks or hold one of their muskets in your hands?

http://www.jamesriverarmory.com

I've been interested in a well-made contract '61 and I'm curious about these folks..

Thanks,

I have seen some of their work and it is good. However, their 1855 Rifle Musket Type I was defarbed from the Armi Sport, so it has the incorrect rear sight on it. It has the sight of the 1842 Rifled-Musket.

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Musket Vendor - Experienced Opinions?

Hallo Kamerad!

"I've been interested in a well-made contract '61 and I'm curious about these folks.. Thanks,"

Yes I have, and IMHO and former professional opinion- at face value- they may not be what you are looking for or need.

James' business and customer base is the N-SSA shooter of limited means and Greenbacks to spend, who wants to be "more competitive" than what the "unadulterated" Italian repro's can accurately perform or shoot- but without spending the extra bucks to go fully "N-SSA custom" as most all of the top several hundred shooters out of the N-SSA's 3,000 have done.

While the N-SSA Small Arms Committee is RUTHLESS when it comes to individuals and custom builders. However, largely due to Val Forgett of Navy Arms being an N-SSA "charter member" and SAC member- the Italian imports do not have to actually meet the same tests (although it is ardently/adamently maintained they do. If that were true, one would not have .54 Sharps, or .580 Enfields...for example..) ;-)

The second point is that the N-SSA allows for "enhancements" that go beyond the CW "as issued and used" category...

For example, the late model (1861 dated Harpers Ferry) M1855 RM I custom built and used to win a shoe box full of team and individual medals in regional and national competition was "enhanced."

It had:

an Oryan/Jencso progressive depth, 7 grove micro-grove rifling, glass-bedded barrel to eliminate whip

highly tuned, smooth, and crisp lock with a 3.5 trigger pull

a raised front sight to shoot at 50 and 100 yards

and shot a 375 grain modern, hollow-based Semi-Wad cutter pushed by 36 grains of FFF (lubed with Criso and beeswax, greased with automotive white lithium grease to eliminate decomp under heat- cast as a .580 and sized down to .578.

I had amber shooting glasses with a special prescription for 50/100 yards (I do not wear glasses or contacts) ground "off center" so the prescription lined up my eye, the sights, and the target when the rifle was held at "Aim."

And I was considered "conservative." :-)

I have not seen their custom work. If by "custom" they truely "custom build" from premium parts (such as Cross that are exact copies of original parts) to ORIGINAL specs, dimensions, and configuration- and IF PRICING is consistent with contemporary price structure, and IF YOU want to pay for a 100% historically accurate gun for your impression.. ;-)

However, I am aware of no one doing M1861 contractors. The best are Cross lockplates, but he does only differently dated "Springfields." (For a contract, a mint original would be needed- and that can run an extra $400-600 just for the plate. (Repro correct hammers and lock "guts" work, saving Big Bucks..)

Curt-Heinrich Schmidt
Former CW Gunmaker

[hireddutchcutthroat]

Re: Musket Vendor - Experienced Opinions?

Anyone ever deal with these folks or hold one of their muskets in your hands?

http://www.jamesriverarmory.com

I've been interested in a well-made contract '61 and I'm curious about these folks..

Thanks,

Lodgewood carries a large selection of original Springfield and Springfield contract lockplates. I had a William Muir plate on my old Euroarms. I think I ended up making new screws for the plate, outside that it slipped right in.

[Nighthawk]

Re: Musket Vendor - Experienced Opinions?

Curt- There are those of us in the N-SSA who are the despised "stitch Nazis", as well as "purists" shooting when it comes to shooting competition. While I will admit the widespread use of fantasy guns shooting bullets that never existed, some of us try to take it to the next level. I shoot a self built Fayetteville Rifle Type III, (S hammer and Bayonet Lug on side of barrel). All of the stock contours, and sights mic. out the same as an original. No bedding or custom lock work. The only concession is a Whitaker barrel in .577, and lock plate and sights from Rich Cross. Original lock internals too, if I remember correctly, (I built this in the early 80's). I use an unsized .575 Lyman Old Style Minnie, lubed with beeswax/tallow mixture and with 40gr. of FFF powder, the thing will shoot one hole groups all day if I can hold it that steady. There is a "cult" in the N-SSA that would like to see an "as issued" class for competition. Now THAT would be fun. :baring_te

[LibertyHallVols]

Re: Musket Vendor - Experienced Opinions?

Curt,
So, what you're saying is, **IF** their "custom" builds utilize parts to original specs, then they might have what I want (however, "springfield" lockplates only, no contractors). ...the caveat being the price (~$1300).

Robert,
Thanks for the input. However, I don't think an AS or Euroarms will meet my needs. I used to have an early Euroarms '61. The wood-to-metal fit was excellent and it had been "defarbed"... it was a really nice looking piece as Italian pieces go. However, the barrel (as you probably know) was waaaay too heavy and the contours of the stock were generally too "chunky" for my liking.

Thanks! I was curious if someone sold something good "out of the box". With a 90-day lead time, they probably come closest, if they meet the specs that Curt noted.

Thanks!

[hireddutchcutthroat]

Re: Musket Vendor - Experienced Opinions?

Curt,
So, what you're saying is, **IF** their "custom" builds utilize parts to original specs, then they might have what I want (however, "springfield" lockplates only, no contractors). ...the caveat being the price (~$1300).

Robert,
Thanks for the input. However, I don't think an AS or Euroarms will meet my needs. I used to have an early Euroarms '61. The wood-to-metal fit was excellent and it had been "defarbed"... it was a really nice looking piece as Italian pieces go. However, the barrel (as you probably know) was waaaay too heavy and the contours of the stock were generally too "chunky" for my liking.

Thanks! I was curious if someone sold something good "out of the box". With a 90-day lead time, they probably come closest, if they meet the specs that Curt noted.

Thanks!

John

I ran into the same problem. You may just want to keep an eye out for a cutdown 61 and rebuild it. That is what I did, and it didnt break the bank.

[JimKindred]

Re: Musket Vendor - Experienced Opinions?

"There is a "cult" in the N-SSA that would like to see an "as issued" class for competition. Now THAT would be fun."

Paul,

I hope that cult works out. We had a similar cult in the high power rifle matches for CMP that finally was able to organize matches that only allow as issued M1 Garands to be used, no National Match or modified rifles allowed. These are the John C. Garand matches. They take it very seriously, even a rifle with just a NM marked operating rod will disqualify it from the match.

Changes can be made if enough pressure is applied. Keep pushing the organization and that type match may just come about leading to other history minded changes in the organization.

Moderators - My above comment is off CW topic but is used as an example that with the right encouragement beneficial changes can be made in large organizations.

[LibertyHallVols]

Re: Musket Vendor - Experienced Opinions?

Robert,
Yes, that is the other option... it requires a lot of looking and a little luck! I always like to keep my options open!

In August, Lodgewood had a nice Savage'61 with a full-length barrel and cutdown stock that would have made a nice parts gun. However, if you don't have the money at the moment, the moment is lost. The gun was sold and I've returned to the drawing board.

Jim:
Yes, the JCG matches are a good example. Interesting note, though...
One of my "Service Grade" CMP M1's has a "NM" op rod. "Service Grade", but unusable! Sheesh! ;)