M1861 Contract muskets

[MassVOL]

Re: M1861 Contract muskets

Ed,
I was looking into the LOCKPLATE, S.N.& W.T.C. For Massachusetts (Reproduction) lockplate but the date is a little late for my taste. Which is why I was looking into the William Mason contract of 1861, which was stamped Taunton, Mass. If you just want to shoot it I suppose it makes no difference when the date is though.

[Jefferson Guards]

1861 Springfield

Maybe I am missing something, but I have been using the search feature for the past two days for advice on defarbing an Armi-Sport 1861 Springfield, but I cannot find any real advice.

Can someone point me to the correct thread or let me know what has to be changed/replaced/reworked in order to make it as close as one of these reproduction can be to an original.

Thanks a bunch!

[J the Black Sheep]

Re: 1861 Springfield

I'm having trouble locating that one myself. You might want to do an advanced search and look for postings on it and replies by Curt-Heinrich.

Good luck!

j

[Dignann]

Re: 1861 Springfield

Brian,

Oddly enough, someone asked the same question on Bob Szabo's forum and Mr. Schmidt provided some answers over there.

http://www.cwreenactors.com/dcforum/Howto/1795.html

Eric

[MassVOL]

Re: 1861 Springfield

Yes that was me on the other forum. And for the good of the group I will pass on what I have learned.
From Curt:
In addition to the finish and Italian markings:

1. Quality Control varies (fit and finish vary).
2. A barrel that is heavier, thicker, and of a different taper.
3. A barrel that lacks the "V P Eaglehead" stampings for "viewed, proofed, and accepted into Government service."
4. A lockplate that is thin and inlet to deep (flush) with the lock mortise.
5. The lock "internals" are not always finished or polished.
6. A cone (nipple) that may have too small of flash hole.
7. A cone bolster that is squareish rather than gently rounded.
8. An Italian hardwood stock instead of American Black Walnut, of larger dimensions and proportions to accommodate the larger barrel.
9. A weak profile, thicker, and more squareish comb on the stock.
10. The hammer is shorter of a slightly different configuration than the original.
11. A thicker wrist on the stock.
12. Band springs with squared instead of rounded ends, and the stock mortising that are shallow and square ended.
13. A nose cap with a weak profile and indistinct features.
14. A butt plate with a short tang with a different shape, as well as a tang with a shallower curve. And the "US" stamp stamped incorrectly below the tang scr#w.
15. Sling swivels that are scr#wed on instead of riveted.
16. The absence of the rectangular or sometimes oval two or three letter "inspector's cartouche" stamp (or sometimes two stamps) on the stock flat opposite the lock where the lock screws go.
17. Markings and stampings, such as the eagle motif, and year or production, year of barrel production, etc. that resemble but do not match the original markings.
18. Missing "U's" for "up" on the right side of the barrel bands (original bands have an internal taper that allows them to slide over the tapered forestock, so "up" is important...).
19. These reproductions vary a little among themselves over time, so some features may change a little depending upon how "old" the particular ArmiSport is.

I wanted to construct a contract Springfield so I drew some information from this site: http://www.beaufortonian.com/mocw/manufact.htm
The thread below also has some good info in it from the boards.

http://www.authentic-campaigner.com/forum/showthread.phpt=3662&highlight=springfield

[MassVOL]

Re: 1861 Springfield

My plan is to get an Armi-Sport from Zimmerman, purchase a hammer from S&S, stain the stock with linseed oil. After that try to find or have made the contract lockplate that I want. The other farbisms I can live with for now.

[tmdreb]

Re: M1861 Contract muskets

I know this is not quite in line with this thread, but a proposition that might be somewhat easier than restamping the whole lockplate. Would it not be a step in the right direction to start out with perhaps different date stampings on muskets? As it stands now, the manufacturers stamp all their same date on the same type of rifle or musket. For example, all '61 Springfields are stamped with the date 1861, the Armisport 1842's are all stamped 1847.

The Colt repro muskets seem like they're as good as the other Italian repros on the market. A few more of these thrown in the ranks would be nice as well. However, I think the main goal we who claim to be authenticity minded would be to have uniformly armed companies. Of course, I also feel this is part of a larger issue in that authenticity needs to be focused more on groups, and not just individuals.

[Bill Cross]

Re: 1861 Springfield

My plan is to get an Armi-Sport from Zimmerman [and] stain the stock with linseed oil.

I assume you meant stain the stock AND coat it with linseed oil.

Heinrich is a better authority, but the stock, if properly stripped of its poly finish (if, in fact, it HAS a poly finish, since newer models of AS guns apparently are being shipped oiled and not polyed) will need to be stained first.

Also, and Heinrich can quote the recipe, modern linseed oil is not the same beast as period, and can be reconstituted with some other mineral spirits added (spar varnish being one of them if memory serves). This concoction is not only more correct, it is harder than a coating of modern linseed oil, which will stay pliable and not protect the wood as well.

Hopefully Curt will step in at some point and provide the exact specifications and suggest some stain colors (I believe I used a mixture of Walnut and Mahagonny, but again, that was a couple of years back and I don't remember exactly).

[MassVOL]

Re: 1861 Springfield

Yes I remember using the search engine and looking up some of his previous posts. Your comments about the Armi-Sport raise a question in my mind. If the gun is already oiled how does that change the whole procedure? Does it still need to be stripped? OR can you just go to work with linseed?

[J the Black Sheep]

Re: 1861 Springfield

Bill,

You're there with the varnish mixture. An equal part Linseed Oil, Spar Varnish and Turpentine. I've also taken formula No. 1 and cut it in half again with Turpentine (formula No. 2) to allow it to penetrate the wood deeper.

As to the stains, Curt can correct me on this (please!) but leather dye works a bit better than the commercial stains out there.

Without going into all the boring detail, on an Enfield stock I refinished, after stripping, reshaping, and sanding the stock, I applied two coatings of Fiebings leather dye to the wood, letting it soak in. The stock should appear a bit darker than you'd ideally want, but not to worry...

Then, I applied two coatings of No. 2 to allow it to penetrate the wood, wiping off the excess after about a minute or so. Some of the dye near the surface did rub off, lightening the stock a wee bit. Then, I applied a few coats of No. 1. No. 1 being a bit thicker, it should fill the pores of the wood a bit better. As this was a finish applied to a military gun, I didn't try to fill in the pores perfectly like I would on a non-military gun. (As a side note, on a Winchester shotgun stock I'm restoring, I applied several hand rubbed varnishings.)

Thomas,

I'm not sure if you'd need to strip the stock or not. I don't know what the Italians are using as a finish. If you're going to change the color of the stock, then you will need to strip it do the bare wood in order for the dye to fully penetrate the wood - the oil will prevent full penetration. Otherwise, proceed as above.


I hope this helps.

j

[AzTrooper]

Did Springfield ever do a production run of the 1861 like Colt did a few years back?

Howdy all,
I recently bought a 1861 Springfield rifle .The craftsmanship and fit is exceptional.The letters SFC appear on the left side of the breech plug and SC is stamped on the left side of the stock between the heads of the two fasteners that attach the lock plate.The loops for the sling are attached with pins . There is a faint design on the stock located roughly a inch behind and slightly lower than the rear most fastener that attaches the lock plate . There are no spring retainers for the bands, and there is a U stamped into each band.There is no "VP" stamped anywhere on it. I looked in several books and the rifle looks exactly like the pictures I saw of what they called a Colt special model 1861.Instead of having Colt stamped on the outer surface of the lockplate, "1861" is stamped at the rear of the lock plate,forward of the hammer "US" is stamped and below it is stamped "SPRINGFIELD FIREARMS Corp." Below that is stamped "SPRINGFIELD Mass"There is no fastener below and to the side of the cone for cleaning, instead of the rounded area that I have seen there is a flat faced ,comma shaped surface with a Eagle stamped on it. The letters SFC is also stamped on the inside of the lockplate. I have had three gunsmiths inspect it and they all agree that the worksmanship is exceptional.They think it was produced by Springfield, it is just when that they dont know.
Im curious, could it have made by Springfield? It is in incredible shape and if it is a Springfield I doubt it was built 140+ years ago,thats why I was wondering if Springfield possibly produced some 1861's in recent years.
To be perfectly honest, I just really like the rifle ....so weather it was produced by Springfield or someone else. old or new, does not really matter,for all I know it may just be a really well made copy or something of the sort. The fit, finish and quality of this is NOTHING like My IAB Sharps carbine thats for sure ! hahaha.
If anyone has any ideas who made this rifle I would really appreciate your input .
Thank You very much,
Respectfully, John Rogers

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Did Springfield ever do a production run of the 1861 like Colt did a few years back?

Hallo Kamerad!

It is not a Model 1861 Springfield... ;-)

No, it is not a continuation of the same Civil War Springfield Armory's Special Model 1861, just a similarity of name for a similar modern-made product.

Within the past few years, the "M1861 Special" has been offered in its Colt,
Amoskeag, and L,G, & Y contract variations- I believe all Italian-made with the "Colt" being surcharged and stamped with a Sam Colt face and signature for Colt's "Blackpowder Signature" line of products.

Yes, the ones I have seen tend to be better made, but accordingly more expensive than their Italian made M1861 cousins. I believe they are all out of production now (?), but one can still be found here and there, and particulary "used." However, they do not compare to the initial run of M1861 Springfield, 1862 Richmond, and M1863 Springfields made in the mid to late '70's by Mike Yeck of Dundee, Michigan.

Curt-Heinrich Schmidt

[Michael McComas]

Re: Did Springfield ever do a production run of the 1861 like Colt did a few years back?

Mr. Rogers,

You are right on the money. Springfield Firearms Corp (not to be confused with Springfield Armory) did indeed reproduce the US Special Model 1861 rifle-musket. I could not find dates of production or other particulars. It sounds like a well-made reproduction, as I would expect from them. They have a reputation for being even better than the real thing.

One of the old hands on the N-SSA board may be able to tell you more about your particular gun, such as when they were made, any known "gotchas" or parts prone to breakage, etc. You can find their board at http://www.n-ssa.org/bb/index.php

[Stonewall_Greyfox]

Re: Modern Marks

The Armi-sport already has the serial number also stamped on the bottom of the barrel. If you have a Euro-arms and want the number on the bottom you can stamp it yourself. You will need a serial number on it somewhere if you want to take the musket into Canada and it can come in handy if it is ever lost or stolen. Harbor Freight tools had a stamping set real cheep. Last time I was there I think I saw one for under $10. Check out the link below.
Terry

 [url]http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Category.taf?CategoryID=163&pricetype=[/url]

Has anyone used this stamping set and can give results? Also does anyone know of a source for buying the correct stamps for an enfield? Essentially I would like to be able to defarb my rifle and my pards at a fraction of the cost, or at least have the stamps for the same price.

Paul B. Boulden Jr.

RAH VA MIL '04

[major]

Re: Modern Marks

Has anyone used this stamping set and can give results? Also does anyone know of a source for buying the correct stamps for an enfield? Essentially I would like to be able to defarb my rifle and my pards at a fraction of the cost, or at least have the stamps for the same price.
Paul B. Boulden Jr.
RAH VA MIL '04

Paul
A set of proof stamps for the Enfield will cost you $1000.00 +. You can have it done for a lot less. E-mail me and I can give you more info. t.schultz5@verizon.net
Terry