strange "expressions"

[john duffer]

From THE CAMPAIGNS OF THE 124th REGIMENT OHIO VOLUNTEERS during the retreat from Spring Hill to Franklin:

As we neared Franklin we came up with some new regiments that General Thomas had hurried on from Nashville, to meet and assist us in case we were forced to a battle before we reached Nashville. These poor fellows that had been as far south as Spring Hill and were returning that morning, were mostly completely played out, and filled the fence corners all along the pike. I am sorry to say the hardy veterans that swung along after marching all night treated then to expressions of which the following are samples: “Fresh fish.” “Fresh fish.” “There lies $1000 and a cow.” “How much did you get ?” “Say Jimmy, who owns you ?” “Millions in it.” These poor fellows, with knapsacks larger than a mule should be required to carry, received these taunts and jeers with silent disgust; and quite likely the most of them at this time are drawing pensions for disabilities received in the service and in the line of duty, while the old veterans of scores of battles and skirmishers, of hundreds of miles of marches, though broken in health, and prematurely old by reason of his hard service, has no hospital record, and suffers great difficulties in establishing his claim for a pension. Something wrong, somewhere, sure.

[Pvt Schnapps]

Re: strange "expressions"

Wonderful stuff. Couldn't help thinking of some battlefield exhortations I ran across recently, recorded by the Adjutant of the 119th NY at Gettysburg*:

“Before ten minutes of this work were well past, a good quarter of the men were lying about dead or wounded, or were limping back to the surgeons; but still the firing went on, neither side showing symptoms of wavering. Under the never-ceasing encouragements of the officers, generally taking the form of “Give ‘em ____, boys!’ or, ‘Knock spots out of them, boys!’ or, ‘Rake the ____ out of ‘em, boys!’ this familiar synonym for heat creeping into almost every admonition...”

*from On Campaign with the Army of the Potomac, The Civil War Journal of Theodore Ayrault Dodge, Stephen W. Sears, ed., Cooper Square Press, NY 2001

YOS
MAS
"Knocking the spots out of them since 2001"

[ephraim_zook]

Re: strange "expressions"

Maybe the continuous shouting of "Pour it on, lads" isn't quite the reenactorism we like to think it is.

Ron Myzie

Wonderful stuff. Couldn't help thinking of some battlefield exhortations I ran across recently, recorded by the Adjutant of the 119th NY at Gettysburg*:

“Before ten minutes of this work were well past, a good quarter of the men were lying about dead or wounded, or were limping back to the surgeons; but still the firing went on, neither side showing symptoms of wavering. Under the never-ceasing encouragements of the officers, generally taking the form of “Give ‘em ____, boys!’ or, ‘Knock spots out of them, boys!’ or, ‘Rake the ____ out of ‘em, boys!’ this familiar synonym for heat creeping into almost every admonition...”

*from On Campaign with the Army of the Potomac, The Civil War Journal of Theodore Ayrault Dodge, Stephen W. Sears, ed., Cooper Square Press, NY 2001

YOS
MAS
"Knocking the spots out of them since 2001"

[BHoover]

Re: strange "expressions"

There's a quote along these lines that I've heard attributed to Leonidas Polk. I found the following on a geocities site with no attribution, so am wondering if someone knows the source for it?

As he led his Division, Major General Cheatham exhorted the advancing Rebels to “Give the Yankees hell!” Alongside him was Major General Polk, an ordained Episcopalian minister, who added “Give them what General Cheatham says, boys! Give them what General Cheatham says!”.

[styler]

Re: hospital records

A gggrandfather of mine put in for a disability pension claiming he was layed up in the corps hospital in Atlanta for a spell. He had the usual affidavits from neighbors, including one who served as an officer in his company, but was denied the request because there was no mention of a hospital stay in his company or regimental records, nor in the records of the corps hospital.

I suspect his case was not unusual.

[Hank Trent]

Re: strange "expressions"

Anyone got ideas on what the inside joke is, in these expressions?

Fresh fish.

That's apparently an echo of a street-vendor's cry, applied to the freshness of the new soldiers.

“There lies $1000 and a cow.”

No idea!

“How much did you get ?”

Apparently, that implied the soldiers had just come from trying to make a deal, so asking how much they got was an insult since it was obvious they'd come out on the bad end. Though I wonder if it had a more specific origin in a play or some such, that popularized it.

“Say Jimmy, who owns you ?”

Presumably, a question that would be asked of a slave, implying the other soldiers are only slaves out carrying burdens on an errand for Uncle Sam. Again, I wonder if it had a more specific origin.

“Millions in it.”

That's an odd one. At first, it appears to be strangely anachronistic, having been popularized in Mark Twain's "The Gilded Age," published in 1873 and put on stage in 1874 with John T. Raymond as Colonel Sellers, whose performance is supposedly where the expression gained fame. But, check out this, suggesting an origin back to circa 1840 Georgia: http://sundial.ccs.yorku.ca/cgi-bin/...l&F=&S=&P=1683 Was "THE CAMPAIGNS OF THE 124th REGIMENT OHIO VOLUNTEERS" definitely written prior to 1873? Has anyone else run across this expression in a war-time account? Most everything I can find (primary and secondary) shows it skyrocketed to popularity post-1873.

Hank Trent
hanktrent@voyager.net

[James Brenner]

Re: strange "expressions"

"How much did you get?" may be a reference to bounty money.

[john duffer]

Re: strange "expressions"

Hank

This book wasn't written until 1894 apparently. I wonder if his memories weren't a little clouded by then. Talking about Franklin he says the Confederates broke the Federal line at Carter House and then stopped to take a break, Opdyke catching them by surprise as that sat on the top of the captured works taking a smoke ! My main purpose in posting was hoping someone could shed some light, especially on the $1000 and a cow.

[styler]

Re: strange "expressions"

"Who owns you" seems to fit substitutes. In general the remarks look down on bounties or the draft and defer to earlier, and in theory more patriotic, volunteers.

[hireddutchcutthroat]

Re: strange "expressions"

Almost all of those expressions refer to the fact that these "Fresh fish" we "Bounty Men" or at least in the eyes of the old vets they were.

[Hank Trent]

Re: strange "expressions"

Almost all of those expressions refer to the fact that these "Fresh fish" we "Bounty Men" or at least in the eyes of the old vets they were.

That makes sense and ties all the expressions together! It even makes the $1,000 and a cow meaningful.

Hank Trent
hanktrent@voyager.net

[Darrell Cochran]

Re: strange "expressions"

That makes sense and ties all the expressions together! It even makes the $1,000 and a cow meaningful.

My thinking exactly -- By the time of Franklin, bounties from Federal, state and, in come cases, even county governments were totaling some pretty tidy sums for those days ... And even the Regular Army was offering recruits $400, not that it helped. So "$1,000 and a cow" was no doubt one wag's estimate of how much the fresh fish had earned for signing up so late.

[Bill Cross]

Re: strange "expressions"

So "$1,000 and a cow" was no doubt one wag's estimate of how much the fresh fish had earned for signing up so late.

And like with the old Pogo exhortation to "vote early and vote often!" the bounty men sometimes collected that bounty more than once. In an age when personal identification was almost unheard of, it wasn't hard to do. Having looked at a number of engravings of Lincoln, for example, I'm not sure that I could've picked him out in a line-up back then if I'd never seen his photo.

[hireddutchcutthroat]

Re: strange "expressions"

And like with the old Pogo exhortation to "vote early and vote often!" the bounty men sometimes collected that bounty more than once. In an age when personal identification was almost unheard of, it wasn't hard to do. Having looked at a number of engravings of Lincoln, for example, I'm not sure that I could've picked him out in a line-up back then if I'd never seen his photo.

Bounty jumping wouldnt be hard at all considering that lack of image mass media, and the recent availability of transportation. A man could collect his bounty in one town and hop a train and 2 hours later be 50 miles away were nobody had ever seen him. Also how many modern ambrotypes have we seen were the subject looks nothing like the image in person.