Illinois jacket question

[billmatt04]

Hello all,
I have been researching Illinois jackets for a few years now, combing through all the pictures I can find of Illinois soldiers wearing them. There is a website dedicated to Illinois regiments and soldiers and there are quite a few pictures of men wearing these garments. However, one detail eludes me. Were the epaulets and belt loops lined underneath with cloth or were they simply just blue flannel? I just acquired a militia jacket and the loops have a white cotton backing on them and I was contemplating removing them if they were not accurate. Any help on this would be greatly appreciated. As always, you fellas come through with valuable information.

Sincerely,
Matthew Cassady
Pvt. 104th Illinois Vol. Inf.

[pprice]

Re: Illinois jacket question

Matthew,
Probably John Pillers would be a good source to look to on this. He's spent some time researching the IL state jackets - as well as the other related state jackets. If memory servers, I think Chris Daley had also done a hunk of research on the NY state jackets - which some believe to all be one in the same.
When I get home tonight I'll look for what little I've got on the subject and see about posting it. There are a few threads that still exist on the subject if you use the search function.

[rebyank]

Re: Illinois jacket question

What is the website dedicated to ILL state jackets?, I would like to see this.

sidedrummer@lycos.com

[Robert Braun]

Re: Illinois jacket question

If memory servers, I think Chris Daley had also done a hunk of research on the NY state jackets - which some believe to all be one in the same.

Umm... IMHO... no.

While not an expert at all on the Illinois jacket, I have done substantial research on the State of New York Jacket. I would suggest that the NY jacket is perhaps a genre unto itself-- a more tailored garment, with piped collar and shoulder tabs, a piped belt loop, and a top entry breast pocket in the later version. Lined only in the breast, with twill tape hand-sewn over the back seams, in these details alone it is unlike any other orignal jacket I have viewed.

Regards, Bob.

[Jefferson Guards]

Re: Illinois jacket question

I believe there are more than one "type" of New York State issue jacket.

An original in the collection of the State of New York and sketched by George Woodbridge has the pocket on the right breast with very thin piping around the collar, epaulets and belt supports. This jacket is also half lined with brown cotton twill and the seams are reinforced with herringbone twill tape.

Another example of a NYS jacket is different and also in the collection of the State of New York. The pocket is on the left side and the piping is thicker and of a cord-like manufacture. There are also two "fishes" taken in on the front of the jacket. The lining is full, with the exception of the sleeves where it was apparently removed. Inked onto the inside lining of this jacket is: H.H. Adist, Co. A, 44th Reg't

[CJDaley]

Re: Illinois jacket question

I have done substantial research on the State of New York Jacket. I would suggest that the NY jacket is perhaps a genre unto itself....it is unlike any other orignal jacket I have viewed.

I agree with Bob on this one. Bob has done a fair amount of research on the topic and if I recall, he even wrote an article for Living History Magazine on the topic.

I think the source of the ILL jacket being the same as the NYS jacket comes from this article, and while ILL contracted to get these jackets, who knows what the finished garments looked like or if the contract was ever filled:

There are also several images of ILL soldiers wearing jackets with piped collars and shoulder straps that appear to mimic the NYS jacket, but without a extant jacket, who can say for sure.....

[Brian Baird]

Re: Illinois jacket question

Matthew,
There are many of us that have studied Illinois jackets for years, Scott Cross, Paul McKee, John Pillars, Greg Schuller, to name a few. As far as I know, no one has found an original ID’d jacket. I have heard of a plain untrimmed jacket, with shoulder straps up in the Chicago area but it is not ID’d. There is a gentleman that lives in northwest Illinois that has 2 ID’s Illinois jackets but will not let anyone study them. A collector friend of mine did see them when he was invited over to view the collection several years ago. So there is really no way to answer your questions on the construction details.
Brian Baird

[TheFenian]

Re: Illinois jacket question

I have also done a lot of research on the NYS jacket including examining several originals and there were indeed many variations. All that I saw were piped and all had the half lining with the herringbone twill tape over the rear inside seams. Some had two belt loops some only one. The specimens that had only one belt loop were obviously made that way as there was no apparent signs of any modifications. I made one for myself patterned off of measurements made from one with the left front breast pocket and two belt loops. Other US state issues jackets I have seen all seemed to have a different cut to the body from the NYS issue Jacket.

Bill Eiff

[rogue]

Re: Illinois jacket question

Matthew,
There are many of us that have studied Illinois jackets for years, Scott Cross, Paul McKee, John Pillars, Greg Schuller, to name a few. As far as I know, no one has found an original ID’d jacket. I have heard of a plain untrimmed jacket, with shoulder straps up in the Chicago area but it is not ID’d. There is a gentleman that lives in northwest Illinois that has 2 ID’s Illinois jackets but will not let anyone study them. A collector friend of mine did see them when he was invited over to view the collection several years ago. So there is really no way to answer your questions on the construction details.
Brian Baird

Brian hit the nail on the head, for all the jackets made and worn, the survival rate of Illinois jackets is about nil. While publishing their wonderous newsletter the Mudsills some years back made finding an Illinois jacket top priority. One was reported in Utica, Illinois, but it turned out to be a cut off frock coat. The hunt continues.
Steve Sullivan

[billmatt04]

Re: Illinois jacket question

Gentlemen,
Thank you for the feedback. Do any of you know how I might get ahold of the fellows who have studied the Illinois jacket? I wish I knew the name of the collector who has those jackets in his private collection (grrr). ANyway, thanks again gents, I do appreciate it.

Sincerely,
Matthew Cassady
Pvt. 104th Illinois Vol. Inf.

[billmatt04]

Re: Illinois jacket question

Fellas,
Sorry, I meant to put this in the last post. Here's the website that has some pics of men wearing what I think is the Illinois State jacket.

http://www.rootsweb.com/~ilcivilw/

Does anyone know what the name of that collector with the ID'd jackets is? Maybe I could give him a call since I live in upper-central Illinois and try to convince him to let me come and see them.

Matthew Cassady

[Agate]

Re: Illinois jacket question

Why exactly do you believe that the source for this school of thought originates with this advertisement Mr. Daley?

From personal experience I can relay that, Schuller, Strayer, among others, have long discussed this because of early images, not a ref in the Scientific American, especially one so late in the war.


Illinois researchers have found several "styles" of jackets in images of volunteers from the Sucker State. These include, as Mr. Price referred to, a style that is close to the style(s) associated with New York. Images of Suckers are known to exist in what has been termed the "Ohio" jacket as well. In some extant company images, such as those of the well known and celebrated 17th Illinois, taken around Vicksburg, several "styles" of jackets are observed being worn within the same company.

Several images of Ohio soldiers wearing what appears to be a "New York" jacket as well exist, and have surfaced as we have now started paying attention, and are keeping an eye out. One of which was on display last year at the little museum at Camp Dennison, Ohio.

Am I not correct in stating that not all New York regiments were initially clothed by New York State? The Union Defense Committee of New York was involved in initial procurement for several regiments. I believe both the Mozart Regiment and the Garibaldi Guard serve as examples do they not?

The Western Department under Fremont had substantial ties with the UDCofNY, as it was through the auspices of the committee in which both the imported Austrian Tubelocks and Hall carbines were purchased for Fremonts department.

We can document a couple of other "New York" ties with the Western Department and Illinois as well.

In his pamphlet "the Justification of Maj. Justus McKinstry" which can be read online at MOA/UMich, Maj. McKinstry (the head of the USQMD in St. Louis) directs all those who are interested in obtaining army contracts to go into the New York market, and pay what the USQMD in that city was paying for goods needed by the Western Department to supply the army. This being done because of the lack thereof, or problems within, the local market in St. Louis.

Also, only a couple of houses are known as the primary suppliers of non-regulation infantry jackets for the State of Illinois, this being provided to me (and others, because of his generosity) by the great one, Greg Schuller (who I would imagine is a gentleman whom one should try and get in touch with if interested in seriously researching the contributions of the State of Illinois to the Union, I'm sure Skulker John would agree, Greg is the man!)

One of these "contractors" or suppliers was a Cincinnati clothing house which acted as a Western agent for the A. T. Stewart & Co. of NYC, according to the testimony of Captain Dart, contained within the Serial Set. Anyone familiar with the Stewart Co. and its reputation as a wholesaler in NYC? Wholesalers simply selling to wholesalers.

Because of this, yes, several of us believe it reasonable that houses in NYC who were interested in supplying and selling to the markets in the West *may* have manufactured or bought and sold jackets of the type adopted by New York, and that these jackets *may* have found their way, (due primarily to procurement on the open market) to troops from Illinois and also Ohio serving in the Western Department. I believe it reasonable, thereby, worthy of further research.

This was certainly the case with the W. F. Enders and Co. of Boston. These folks provided clothing to both the AQMs at Cincinnati and St. Louis, and *may* be responsible for that unusual msj that shows up in images of Merrill's 2nd Mo. horse, the 3rd Iowa Cav, both of the Western Department, as well as the 1st OVC, and Battery A, 1st OVLA sometimes referred to as another Ohio "issue" garment (there will BTW, be more to come on this matter) both serving in Kentucky, another department.

Clothiers were business's, interested in expanding their markets, as was done by these same folks during the antebellum period and before. Is it not reasonable to consider this?

As others have stated as well, how many of these jacket "styles" or "types" have survived BTW, in order to compare? How much documentation is known and has been reviewed?

Anthony Arnoux himself stated in his testimony in the Serial Set (an honest to goodness documented supplier of clothing to the SNY and its second general clothing contract) that he had a "Western" agent. He himself providing mixed gray jackets to the SNY, this being after the initial Brooks Bros. business.

We don't know as yet, I agree, and anything conclusive is a long way off.

Generally, for purposes of our impressions it doesn't make a lot of difference anyway. But, I am of the opinion that we should keep somewhat of an open mind on these matters, and encourage others to do so as well, not because of what we know, and its volume, but because of what we do not know, and its volume.

There is no one authority on any of this however, as it ain't been written yet.

BTW, very willing, as always, to provide quotes from what I referred to, was in somewhat of a hurry this evening. My personal opinion on the matter being that the adoption of infantry jackets as with all non-regulation clothing has little to do with tradition or anything such, but due competition, within an excited market.

I remain, as always,

John

John Sarver
Cin. O.

[ScottCross]

Re: Illinois jacket question

Mathew,

As far as the Illinois collector who claims to have the Identified Illinois jackets, I will not divuldge his name due to a debt of privacy that I owe him. He would not let you see them anyway, and it would just P__s him off. Also, try a search for Illinois Jackets on this sight. It was covered very extensively some time back.

Steve,

I took extensive notes on the jacket in Utica and it is a custom made jacket. No signs of it being cut down.

John,

Thanks for you input. After looking at hundreds of images, I believe that the state was importing from one of the New York manufacturers also.

[John of the Skulkers Mess]

phase one......

Matthew,
You've taken the first step by asking around.
Those fellows who have posted replies (myself excluded) are among the most knowledgeable. Copy what they've posted. Mucho research has been done already, it needs to be preserved.
Try the search function of this Web site to cover all your bases.

USAMHI at Carlisle Barracks, Chicago Historical Society, Internet, National Archives, Military Images magazine, Illinois State Historical Library, etc. Root. Root. Root! And then share what you find.

I'm too optimistic to think that there are no surviving jackets. We just have to sniff it out.
Until then, we have to use alternate means.

For my own purposes, I've made use of a couple jackets. One was 'based' upon a state jacket reported to be at the Atlanta History Center. I may be getting my memories crossed, but as I recall, it was a privately made jacket, though the soldier had it made off of his previous state jacket, which was worn out. My other jacket was based upon ye olde jacket pattern but I made some requests regarding features (as I did with the other jacket) using original photos as a guide. Both were made of satinette, FWIW.

White cotton backing underneath the epaulettes? I've only see a couple of pictures where you get a half-look at them. I don't see white cotton. That's my two cents worth. (Have I looked at every Ill. ID'd image, hell no. Not yet anyway.) On my first jacket, there was no backing/lining - it was just the coat material. On the second jacket, the maker (local seamstress new at CW reproductions) used polished 'brown' cotton. Don't know if the pattern called for it. (*I also own a 'NYS militia' jacket by one of the Recommended Vendors that uses polished brown cotton, if I remember. Its been a while since I played with it.)

Are you planning to wear this jacket for your '104th' Illinois impression?
Personally, I try to cater my uniform to the impression. For early-to mid-war Ill., yeah, state jackets abound. There are photos taken at Vicksburg showing mucho 17th Ill. soldiers wearing jackets. Late war, it tapers off. (The photos in the 31st Ill. regimental history, likely taken at Louisville, KY in 1865 show cut-down coats into jackets.) Specially for the later regiments. Going by photos alone, I see lots of dress coats in the 'gee-I'm-a-soger-boy' photo. And actually, I would think 104th soldiers would be 'suited' to wearing dress coats and sack coats. (Barring, private-purchase short jackets/issue infantry jackets) But that's just me. Documents/images may show otherwise. I love to be wrong.

Then again, I started out with my first unit portraying the 8th Ill. Inf. How many times did we portray that regiment at an event. I think none.... twice.

The double-eged sword of researching a unit down the canteen, hat, blanket, coat - down to the month and year - is that its only 'good' for that time period. I'd love to do 12th Ill. Inf. at Fort Donelson where they were 'most likely' using gray uniforms, smoothbores, india rubber canteens and red blankets. But there is NO WAY I would attempt to stretch that impression anywhere else. Sorry, I may be treading the fineline between authentic discussion and the Sinks!

PERSONAL OPINION ALERT! - NYS militia jackets (or whatever they are called. we need to come up with some nomenclature!), well, that's another kettle of fish.
I've seen several ID'd Illinois images (including 17th) wearing something that looks a lot like it. Scott Cross uncovered a pile of images of 13th Ill. soldiers in them. Just as I've seen some ID'd images (fewer) of Illinois soldiers wearing the 'Ohio' jacket with pointed/chevron/whatever cuffs. But the useage seems small in comparison (photographic) to the whatever-the-heck-it-is state jacket. I call it this because button count varies, among things. (*There are some fine sources for repros of these jackes out there. See the Recommended Vendors list)

If I feel spunky, I'll come back and post some more half-baked opinions on NYS militia jackets among Illinois/western troops.....

Anyway, collectors with multi-dollar collections would be best treated with silk gloves, IMHO. Don't go thinking anyone will be happy to help you by allowing you access to their relics. (Are you near Wheaton? They have 2 CW shows there a year. I've been dying to get to one.) By the way, I've been lucky to find some collectors very helpful in regards to copies of their images. Sadly, we've lost a couple of them in recent years.

I apologize to all for my ramblings. If anything comes out of this, I encourage Matthew to keep digging.

Re: Greg Schuller
At last report, his computer croaked (again), so all of those longing for e-mail replies, well, its gonna be a while longer. And the delays really bug him. If you know Greg, you know he doesn't like to do a 'half-job' on a project. Aside from that, he is well. He is at: gaschuller@insightbb.com

Now, we don't want to get into the useage of gray jackets by Illinois troops do we? ;-)

Sorry, if I've talked in circles and not really offered any info and just opinion,
John Pillers

[billmatt04]

Re: Illinois jacket question

John,
Thank you for your advise and opinions. I am planning on using the jacket for my 104th impression because I have seen pictures in the regimental history of men wearing blue jackets with epaulets. Unfortunately I cannot tell about the belt loops because the pictures stop at the waist. The 104th wore everything from sack coats, dress coats, to the state jacket, private purchase coats, shell jackets, you name it. I have one of each of those coats now so I can tailor my impression to whatever event we are doing, or if I am doing a living history set at a certain time period. I am going to call around to some of the people listed just to see what they know and continue the quest myself. Someone probably has a Illinois jacket up in their attic in a trucnk and doesn't even know about it :confused_ . Oh well. Thanks again fellas and if anyone has anything else they want to share I would be delighted to listen.

Sincerely,
Matthew Cassady
Pvt. 104th Illinois Vol. Inf.