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  • Third Person Question

    Hi Guys,

    I've been doing a lot of thinking over the last several weeks, and one thing I'd like to do is find a good event to attend where I can try my hand at something different, third person. Before everyone gasps and thinks I'm leaving first person behind, never fear, I'm not. :tounge_sm Howver, after attending a local event as a spectator, I've been wanting to try it out and see how difficult it really is.

    It doesn't matter what event I'm refering to, they're all pretty much alike around here, but... the ladies were all sitting under a tent fly in a circle talking to one another and sewing. Their topic of conversation wasn't about the war, but about their own 21st century lives. As a spectator looking in, I found the group of ladies to be uninviting {closed off to the public, if you will}, the soldiers were all running about doing this or that, but even when the battle wasn't going on, they were difficult at best to find, and impossible to approach. The only person I found who was really inviting was the blacksmith, who was plying his trade and talking to people.

    We also have a small completely farby Rev War event about 20 miles from my house. But every year there is a group of VA Militiamen who come and do third person interpretation. They are amongst the best third person interpreters I've ever met. They are always so inviting in their body language and in their topics of discussion. They are ready to answer questions with intelligent, well thought out answers. I look forward to this event annually, as a spectator to watch them present to the public.

    I know a lot of people have gotten hooked on saying they prefer to do third person interpretation cause it's easier for the public to understand. But I have come to the firm belief that there is good and bad third person, just like there's good and bad first person.

    I've been thinking about this, and came up with a few ideas based on stuff I learned about third person interpretation at Conner Prairie, plus my own experience of traveling around to events.

    1. Third person interpreters {like first person} should not congregate in large numbers. The public finds it difficult to break through the barriers to talk to them.

    2. Based on some excellent third person I've seen done, interpreters should stand at angles to each other rather than face to face, so their backs are never toward their intended audience. This leaves a wedge-like shape between the interpreters that Joe Public can step into and become involved in a presentation.

    3. The presenter should "break the ice" by saying, "Good afternoon," or some such to passing spectators, and try to reel in the spectator with something quick and catchy. Almost like trying to sell your wares. The more we try to act interested in what we have to talk about, the better the more interested the spectator, and the better the questions become.

    4. The presenter should have their information on the tip of their tongue, but not memorized, and should only share a short presentation with their audience. Enough to "spark" the visitor's interest and curiosity." Visitors like to ask questions.

    I was wondering what other tricks of the trade my fellow c/p/h comrades have found that works well with being inviting and sparking that interest in the visitor that will leave the same kind of fond memories as the blacksmith, and the VA militia, did with me.

    Thanks,

    Linda Trent
    lindatrent@zoomnet.net
    Linda Trent
    [email]linda_trent@att.net[/email]

    “It ain’t what you know that gets you into trouble.
    It’s what you know that just ain’t so.” Mark Twain.

  • #2
    Re: Third Person Question

    Linda,
    Might want to give TGW a whirl... :)
    S. Chris Anders

    "Authenticity Glorifies the Campaign"

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Third Person Question

      Linda (& others),

      There is nothing wrong with doing 3rd person interp at all. I will do it a lot especially at NPS type events. I use two things to break the ice with the public. One, I use a small blanket display of items in my roll so that the public can look at what a soldier may have carried with him on a particular campaign. And two, I don't move around! If you just sit there in one place long enough, the public will come by and ask questions. Also, it helps greatly if you; know your subject and the context in which you are portraying it. For example, recently I did two events in which I put the above practices into use. The public would come by and ask some very good questions about just what I was carrying and why I was dressed out like that. I was then able to explain to them in straight English just what I was portraying and I was able to get into some of the material culture items I carried with me and why. At many events I think you will find this type of interp most rewarding. Good luck.
      [COLOR=DarkRed][SIZE=4][FONT=Times New Roman]En Obtien!...James T. Miller[/FONT][/SIZE][/COLOR]

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Third Person Question

        Linda,

        I volunteer at a local living history museum a couple of days a week and need to do third person constantly, esspecially with school kids. I always greet the visitors by breaking the ice with a comment such as , "good afternoon" etc. If I am doing a particular job, ie. hat making, I tell them briefly about my first person personna(introduce myself) and about the job I am doing. The public almost always approaches you out of curiosity and the disire to ask questions. You have to read the person or people with whom you are speaking and allow them to move the conversation in a direction they are comfortable with, although they may require a certain amount of proding. I apply this to Civil War events as well. When a person or a group approaches, I usually offer a greeting and I invite them into the camp/street. Give them a bit of information and allow them to ask the questions they may have. Third person can be as rewarding as first person if it is done the right way. It is great to share your passion with a visitor and it can be a great way to recruit as well.
        Good luck.

        Rob Walker
        Co. H
        119th NYSV
        Rob Walker
        Co. H
        119th NYSV
        Old Bethpage Village Restoration


        Old Bethpage Village Restoration and Castle Williams on Governors Island safe for now. Thank you to everyone for your help!!

        "There is a fine line between a hobby and mental illness"

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Third Person Question

          Linda,

          This is an excellent topic, one that I have given a great deal of thought to. Thanks for bringing it up!

          While I fully expect to take some heat for making the statement that I am about to make, I believe it to be the truth. For quite some time I have been of the opionion that 1st person interpretation is quite possibly the worst method of attempting to interact with and educate the public. While 1st person can be a whole lot of fun for reenactors, it fails horribly in its goals with the public at large.

          I have not studied the issue and collected data, but I would estimate that less than 5% of the general public feels comfortable engaging costumed interpreters speaking in the 1st person. The majority of the public is not well read in history, and 1st person impressions make them feel inadequate, dumb and ignorant; not the state of mind that a pupil should be in for effective learning!

          All too often we alienate the public with strict adherence to 1st person interpretation. This is a weakness in our hobby if our goal is to educate.

          Looking forward to the discussion.

          -Tad
          Tad Salyards
          Mpls, MN - 33d Wisconsin

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Third Person Question

            Tad, I can see your point--bad first person discourse is BAD!

            Still, if the only difference between first and third person is the "I" statement, bad prep and presentation is bad prep and presentation. ("I do this, I think this, I have done this," versus "They did this, they thought this," etc.)

            The presenter has to know their stuff, and know how to share it... no matter the "tense" of the presentation.

            Really good points, Linda! We're hoping to "incubate" a group out this way, and I want to be able to draw distinctions between events we do to experience the setting, and events we do to educate and interact with the public--they're not always the same, and both goals are great.

            I've been involved with third-person on a limited basis, and I've noticed that having something to hand the spectator really helps; a small quilt block, a doll, a bit of yarn, etc--something they can touch and feel while we chat. (Obviously, I don't do military stuff... not too many cloth dolls taken on campaign!)

            It takes WORK to synthesize good information into a 30-60 second tidbit; longer "process" explanations seem to work well when they're about 2-3 minutes long.

            If the setting permits, having a way for the spectator to try their hand at something similar is also nice: a spelling quiz in a school setting, or word-math, etc; a "community quilt" in a medium hoop; a washpan with clear water and sturdy dishes on the ground.... anything that can draw the spectator into *controlled* interaction.

            I've found that being the first to break the ice (by asking a question from a period context, saying hello, etc) really cuts down on "Idiot Tator" questions, most of which seem to arise from a desire to break the ice somehow, and not knowing how to do it. "Is that a real fire?" --Well, yeah. But the real question is, is it representative of the past, and what are you going to be doing with it? Sometimes it's a challenge to not be flippant, but addressing the spectator first really cuts down on it.

            Sorry I don't have any event suggestions...

            Too bad the "Huge Sewing Fest" ladies aren't open to a few period ideas! How easy it would be to have one young woman reading from a period reprint book or magazine, or the Bible, while everyone works on a "charity" project, and one or two people are designated "SpokeStitchers" on the ends of an arc of sitters facing the public! They'd get a more period experience themselves, without closing off the public as well.

            Third person isn't free reign for modern topics in my book.
            Regards,
            Elizabeth Clark

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Third Person Question

              Linda

              Our group does most of our living histories as 3rd person, because of the ease of talking to the public who have graced us with their presence. And it is easy to start off with Good "time of day". Usually I follow that up with, "Do you have any questions? or Anything I can answer for you?"

              Usually that is enough for them to ask who or why we are where we are. Other members of our group will do as suggested above and lay out a display or just do a "daily" routine that might draw the person into asking what they are up to.

              We have found that many people will head towards the rifle stack and that is where some good questions begin.

              One of our members works as a ranger down at Ft McHenry and he has suggested that our group try "4th Wall Interpretation" or something like that. Where you have a group who are in first person and you have a spokesperson who is explaining the activity to those watching. This helps the public understand if a group is doing a drill or maybe issueing rations or some other activity.
              Greg Bullock
              [URL="http://www.pridgeonslegion.com/group/9thvacoe"]Bell's Rifles Mess[/URL]
              Member, [URL="http://www.civilwar.org/"]Civil War Preservation Trust[/URL]
              [URL="http://www.shenandoahatwar.org/index.php"]Shenandoah Valley Battlefield Foundation[/URL]

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Third Person Question

                For what it's worth, I enjoy making the first move. This can be anything from just saying, "Hi" to someone I've made eye contact with to walking up to them and asking them to please hold my rifle-musket while I take a drink of water and wipe away the sweat. If it's a family group, the children (and some adults) love to try on the equipment. Then the questions come from all directions, other spectators walking by stop and want to get in on the act or just listen in. You can easily end up talking period issues for an hour without even trying. People see that you are accessable and by approaching them, they are on fairly neutral turf where they are less intimidated.

                The best part to this kind of approach for me is that doesn't matter what type event I'm attending. It works for all types, and I can control the length of my stay, so that if someone tries to pontificate or show off "their" knowledge, I can always beg off as having to get back to my unit if it becomes tedious.
                Bernard Biederman
                30th OVI
                Co. B
                Member of Ewing's Foot Cavalry
                Outpost III

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Third Person Question

                  Comrades,

                  I've done 3rd person at NPS events as well, and I must confess that having someone move from the 1st person into the spectator's time frams and converse with them as one of them makes things work a LOT smoother.
                  It's almost as if you are the tour guide, although you tend to let the crowd conduct their own tours, you simply giving them the little nudge here and there.
                  My first action, as I am approaching the group, is to size them up and find the one I am going to start off with. It's usually an older child, say 15-16, but sometimes could be an adult or even a younger sibling. That's my mark, and that's how I am going to gain acceptance into the group and make them feel at ease with me. After that, it's almost like a real estate agent showing off a model home. You show them around, which basically delineates the areas where they may travel freely, and let them ask questions. Normally, I'll have a VERY short introduction, maybe just a few sentences, which I can use to judge where the group's interests lie. Following their eye contact and glances and taking note of the comments and discussions between them, if only of a few word's length, withh give you something to take and run with. After that, it's fairly easy to walk and discuss with them, answer questions, etc.
                  I have also succesfully slipped into 1st person to interact with other members of the display group, soldiers, officers, period civilians, etc, while guiding the visitors, and it provides an excellent connection between the present and the past, where both can remain in their respective times, but speak to eachother as well.
                  All in all, it's better than 5th person, which is what I often hear. You know, the presentation that goes "I heard from this fellow who read a book about the civil war that..."
                  Respects,
                  Tim Kindred
                  Medical Mess
                  Solar Star Lodge #14
                  Bath, Maine

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Third Person Question

                    A very underutilized resource for interpretive training in the field of historic interpretation is the National Association for Interpretation. http://www.interpnet.com/home.htm Many of us have been exposed to (or belong to) ALHFAM and/or MOMCC, but this organization has a whole new specturm of resources to offer us if we want to increase the professionalism and credibility of what we can offer to the general public.

                    Phil Campbell
                    Phil Campbell

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Third Person Question

                      Hallo Kameraden und Kameradinnen!

                      To supplement the excellent advice already shared....

                      In my experience from Dog and Pony Shows to 1st and 3rd person at and for the NPS... there are several levels of "spectators and visitors:"

                      1. Those who wander by at a safe distance, looking on from 10 or 15 yards, and then passing through.
                      2. Those who wander by at a safe distance, looking on from 3 or 5 yards, stopping for a second or two to look, and then passing on.
                      3. Those wander by looking on from 1 to 3 yards, may be snap a quick picture or minute or two of video, and pass through.
                      4. Those that come up and stop to look, then pass on by.
                      5. Those that come up and stop to look, and ask a question, then nod and pass on by.
                      6. Those that come up and stop to look, ask 2-3 questions, nod, and pass off.
                      7. Those that come up and stop to look, ask 2-3 questions, nod, and hang around.
                      8. Those that come up and stop to look, ask 3-5 questions, nod, hang around, and ask more questions.
                      9. Those that come up and stop to look, ask 3-5 questions, nod, and hang around and do not leave.
                      10. Those that come up and stop to look, ask 10-25 questions, nod, and hang around but you wish they would leave because they are strange, creepy, and just plain scary.

                      :-)

                      I find three basic things to sometimes help:

                      1. An "ice breaker" or "grabber" in the form of an opening line or question other than "Do you have any questions?" (never ask a question that can be answered with just a "yes" or "no," or one that serves to "dismiss" one with a "no.")
                      2. A "visual" such as a blanket display, one's shelter half, campfire/cookfire.
                      3. An "activity" even if as mundane as sewing a mend or button, or cleaning a gun, or seeing to kit.

                      A pard of mine has a charcoal letter slab of wood that reads:

                      "Ask a question, win a free answer."

                      and I am thinking of using a piece of rail fence that reads "Free Answers."

                      Choose a bait, and set the trap... :-)

                      Curt-Heinrich Schmidt
                      At Work In the Fields of the Bored (spectators) Mess
                      Curt Schmidt
                      In gleichem Schritt und Tritt, Curt Schmidt

                      -Hard and sharp as flint...secret, and self-contained, and solitary as an oyster.
                      -Haplogroup R1b M343 (Subclade R1b1a2 M269)
                      -Pointless Folksy Wisdom Mess, Oblio Lodge #1
                      -Vastly Ignorant
                      -Often incorrect, technically, historically, factually.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Third Person Question

                        I'll try to kill all the birds with one stone here :tounge_sm

                        Chris, thanks for the invite to GOW. I was fully planning on attending, but I just couldn't swing so many weekends away from home.

                        While 1st person can be a whole lot of fun for reenactors, it fails horribly in its goals with the public at large.
                        Tad, I'd prefer not to get too much into this topic, as it would require it's own thread, but let's just agree to disagree for the purposes of keeping this thread on topic :wink_smil Suffice it to say that bad third person, just like bad first person can alienate the spectator. It leaves them on the outside looking in.

                        Guys, okay, here's another question. What is the main goal of third person interpretation? Is it to demonstrate/talk about generic army/civilian life in the US or is it to demonstrate/talk about the specifics of the area in which you are currently standing at the time of the event? IOW, would one be expected to still eat foods that would have been typical to a certain time and place, or would any food of the era be acceptable? I'm thinking of a 3rd person refugee-type impression. I can see distinct advantages to still cooking and eating only foods appropriate to the time and place being portrayed.

                        I know one thing that I really enjoyed about the Rev War VA Militia guys was they were in garrison at Point Pleasant, VA, and they had one man who was doing some black walnut dyeing, another who was drying venison on a fire, and another had his blanket roll all laid out with his things on it, etc. They were very open to the spectators, and gave an excellent presentation. Each presenter sort of handed the spectators off to the next in line, and we {as spectators} all learned quite a bit. They spoke with an air of confidence, and when we remained behind to discuss various details and such were always quite accomodating and happy to answer our questions, which gave us confidence that what they said was true, and honestly, it gave me the desire to look into several things by igniting that spark {I tell them this every year, too :tounge_sm }. It taught me that basically doing good third person requires lots of preparation and research.

                        A lot of you have been giving me some excellent ideas, and I'm grateful for the ideas. Keep 'em coming!

                        Thanks,

                        Linda Trent
                        lindatrent@zoomnet.net
                        Linda Trent
                        [email]linda_trent@att.net[/email]

                        “It ain’t what you know that gets you into trouble.
                        It’s what you know that just ain’t so.” Mark Twain.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Third Person Question

                          Along these same lines, I'm curious about something.

                          One can sum up the ultimate goal of immersion events as: trying to be as historically accurate as possible from the start to the end of the event. You can disagree about what the historic facts actually were, you can disagree about what's the lesser of two evils when there's no accurate choice available, you can debate what needs to be compromised for safety, and most importantly, no one actually expects to reach the goal of complete historical accuracy. But the ultimate goal is always there as a guidepost to use, when trying to decide the best course of action, and to create a sense of cooperation and common purpose among the participants.

                          But what about interpretive events, either first person or third person? During hours when spectators are present, the ultimate goal can again be summed up pretty easily: to interpret history as successfully as possible to the public. Again, you can debate what that means and there's a massive amount of literature from Tilden on down with different opinions, since there's no single right answer for how to read your visitor, what interpretive method to use, where to compromise on accuracy to keep the visitors intrigued and happy, etc. But communicating history to the public is always there as a guidepost.

                          But what about the times during interpretive events that the public isn't present, for example evenings, overnight and early mornings? What's the guidepost then? That's my question, and it's one of the main reasons I find interpretive events less enjoyable.

                          The visitor part is fun, but after-hours usually seems a combination of modern small talk, gossip and partying (all boring to me), and/or all the stuff I hate about reenactments--camping, eating lousy food and wearing uncomfortable clothes--with none of the fun stuff--which is trying my best to achieve a specific goal, either accuracy, interpretation, or something else.

                          I've been to a few events where the goal is public interpretation during the day and historical accuracy at other times, like Immortal 600 and an upcoming one at Perryville. But that doesn't seem to be the goal of *most* interpretive events I've run across, so I suspect that's not the answer. So what's the goal for a typical interpretive event when the public isn't around?

                          Hank Trent
                          hanktrent@voyager.net
                          Hank Trent

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Third Person Question

                            To comment on Hank's question,

                            I feel that the off hours at interpetive events should be in the first person. When the public is not around that its the time to completely immerse ourselves in our first person to try to get to our goal to feeling as close as is possible the life of the common civil war soldier. Last November we had a picket post event at our home base which is a living history/village restoration museum. The public was involved during regular museum hours but when ever the public was not around we stayed in first person. It was a great event that allowed the best of both 1st and 3rd person. The public was able to see a picket post, something they won't see often at other events and we were able to really enjoy the time without the public. It was the first time it was done at the museum and it went great and it will only get better. It is possible to do both 1st and 3rd person and still have an enjoyable experience, as long as everyone stays in the first person while the public in not in view.

                            Rob Walker
                            Co. H
                            119th NYSV
                            Rob Walker
                            Co. H
                            119th NYSV
                            Old Bethpage Village Restoration


                            Old Bethpage Village Restoration and Castle Williams on Governors Island safe for now. Thank you to everyone for your help!!

                            "There is a fine line between a hobby and mental illness"

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Third Person Question

                              Hallo Kameraden!

                              Indeed...

                              I believe a number of problems emerge because there is too much "interpreting to the public," and "educating the public as to their history, hertitage, etc.."
                              And not enough, or failed concept of, or lack of a concept of, "interpreting to outselves, for ourselves." Doing for ourselves, and our comrades.
                              Sometimes, often times, even nearly all times- it is like a light switch going off- the public seems to be the sole focus of our efforts as well as existence- and when they are gone a "different culture" emerges.
                              IMHO, we need to not forget to "do" for ouselves and our comrades. Doing so, the "public" part would be easier and more effective...

                              Curt-Heinrich Schmidt
                              Curt Schmidt
                              In gleichem Schritt und Tritt, Curt Schmidt

                              -Hard and sharp as flint...secret, and self-contained, and solitary as an oyster.
                              -Haplogroup R1b M343 (Subclade R1b1a2 M269)
                              -Pointless Folksy Wisdom Mess, Oblio Lodge #1
                              -Vastly Ignorant
                              -Often incorrect, technically, historically, factually.

                              Comment

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