csa frock coats at Franklin

[3rdARboy]

Could somebody tell me or tell me where I could look to find how common single breasted jean cloth frock coats in the AoT at Franklin? Thanks

Lane Reeder
Co.E, 3rd Arkansas Inf.
Texas Brigade

"...they'll do to tie to!" Texas talking about 3rd when first assigned to Texas Brigade.

[Fod]

Re: csa frock coats at Franklin

I'll bite. You should be a bit more specific. There were lots of units in the AoT.

Many here usually approach the question from the other direction, that is find what items a unit had, rather than what units had an item.

Might I suggest that you reverse the question....

"I will be portraying X unit at Franklin, the research I've done shows that they received new uniforms through Y depot while at .... in September '64. Does anyone have research showing what type of uniforms were being issued by Y depot in late '64?"

It's hard to answer without knowing more. Were any depots issuing frocks in 64? How much longer after Little Rock fell and the depot moved were frock coats issued?

Of course this assumes that you're portraying a specific unit. It doesn't address the issue if you're doing a "generic" impression or want to get into the whole depot issue/private purchase/sent from home/late war "civilian clothes" as uniforms discussion.

[Tom Ezell]

Re: csa frock coats at Franklin

It's hard to answer without knowing more. Were any depots issuing frocks in 64? How much longer after Little Rock fell and the depot moved were frock coats issued?

The Little Rock Quartermaster Clothing depot went out of business, fairly permanently, in September 1863 when the Feds came into town and put everything under New Management.

By the time of the Chickamauga/Chattanooga campaign in the fall of 1863, frock coats in the Army of Tennessee were pretty much a homemade or privately-purchased item. There are a number of frocks documented to this time period shown in Echoes of Glory and other references, and in most cases their provenance show these to have been sent to individuals as Something From Home.

Given that CS clothing depots were focusing on jackets and roundabouts, and the rigors of the Atlanta campaign and the march up into Tennessee, it is my opinion that frock coats on enlisted men would be exceedingly uncommon at Franklin/Nashville. Your best choice would be your old worn "Columbus" pattern shell jacket, or maybe one of the Alabama Depot. At least part of Cheatham's corps had received some clothing issue at Demopolis, AL in mid-October, so it's possible there were a fair number of Alabama style jackets mixed in with whatever the boys had left coming out of the Atlanta campaign.

"Arkansas frock coats" would likel have been non-existent at this time... the depot having been out of action for more than a year, and there is no real indication that troops east of the Mississippi ever received a resupply or re-issue of them after the fall of 1861... Arkansas troops in the armies of Mississippi, Tennessee, and Northern Virginia were almost wholly dependent on what they could get from the Confederate States quartermasters after that point. The Arkansas Military Board wouldn't even issue clothing to Texas troops stationed In Arkansas, the men of the 10th Texas for instance had to send a detail home in Oct. 1862 to collect winter clothing for the regiment.

Tom

[3rdARboy]

Re: csa frock coats at Franklin

Thanks.
We will be portraying a Georgia regiment in Bate's Division of Cheathem's Corps. I don't know which yet.It will be the 37th Georgia or the 4th battalion of sharpshooters in Tyler's Brigade or the 25th, 29th, 30th Georgia or the 1st Sharpshooters of Jackson's brigade.
Lane Reeder
Co. E, 3rd Arkansas Inf.
Texas Brigade

[James the Haggard Ranger]

Re: csa frock coats at Franklin

If you are portraying a soldier in Hardee's / Cheatham's Corps for either or the Atlanta Campaign or the Tennessee Campaign then the Columbus Depot Jacket should be your primary choice. I 've been doing consideralble research into the clothing worn by soldiers of the Army of Tennessee during the Atlanta Campaign with some overflow research involving Franklin and Nashville.
Although there seems to have been some Frock Coats issued to a few units in Hood's Corps and Polk's Corps prior to the Atlanta Campaign, there is little evidence that any were issued during this campaign or to Hardee's Corps. Only homespun frocks show up at this time.
Prior to Franklin, the last time any significant clothing was issued to the Army of Tennessee was just before Jefferson Davis visit to the Army in mid September. Bate's Division got new clothing at this time because it was documented by soldiers in the Kentucky Brigade just before they were detached from Bate's Division and mounted to be part of Wheeler's Cavalry Corps. The uniforms issued were Columbus Depot Jacket's with matching jean wool pants. It would be the last major clothing issue to Bate's Division and Cheatham's Corps prior to 1865.
Apparently the uniforms held up well through the battle of Franklin, because most Federal accounts describe the Confederates as having a general neat appearance. However, after Nashville most Confederates were described by the Federals or local civilians as rough and ragged and in poor condition.

A good book to read about all this is Wiley Sword's "The Confederacy's Last Hurrah." This book has good descriptions and good maps of the 1864 Tennessee campaign.

Thanks,

James Wooten, Interpretive Ranger

[LWhite64]

Re: csa frock coats at Franklin

Well if you are portraying a Georgian then you have a chance of having a state issue frock, Georgia did make them, you also have a chance for a homemade one as well, although to a lesser extent. The AOT rested in Palmetto, GA for a few weeks after the fall of Atlanta and in the last days of September began the move into North Georgia, they crossed over into Alabama in mid October and received an issue of clothing at Gadsden on October 22nd, moved across North Alabama to the area around Tuscumbia and again were issued some clothing there. Apparently the Depot issue clothing was subpar even for CS stuff though as after the march north from Alabama to Spring Hill, many of the items the men were wearing were falling apart and a great deal of Federal clothing was taken at Spring Hill. I know I have wandered off a bit, but I think you have grounds for a Frock IF you are doing a Georgia unit.

Lee

[boreguard]

Re: csa frock coats at Franklin

Well if you are portraying a Georgian then you have a chance of having a state issue frock, Georgia did make them, you also have a chance for a homemade one as well, although to a lesser extent. The AOT rested in Palmetto, GA for a few weeks after the fall of Atlanta and in the last days of September began the move into North Georgia, they crossed over into Alabama in mid October and received an issue of clothing at Gadsden on October 22nd, moved across North Alabama to the area around Tuscumbia and again were issued some clothing there. Apparently the Depot issue clothing was subpar even for CS stuff though as after the march north from Alabama to Spring Hill, many of the items the men were wearing were falling apart and a great deal of Federal clothing was taken at Spring Hill. I know I have wandered off a bit, but I think you have grounds for a Frock IF you are doing a Georgia unit.

Lee

We tend to overlook the quite large number of individuals who were left behind with hospitable towns people, home for a period of time or absent(usually because of sickness), and the just plain sick men that didn't have the opportunity to wear out their original commutation uniform/early state issue coats. Where as in contrast those that were not as sick and had been active were issued replacements from various depots with priority. While it's probably not a majority percentage it'd be a noticable number of "early" coats at ponits of time such as Franklin, simply due to the numbers of individuals who were absent with their respective units prior to that time and were only just now seeing the elephant. I wouldn't think it strange to see frocks as late as Franklin, but more the exception than the rule, but still not a rare instance.

Dennis Neal
Visit the Camp Moore Website at: www.campmoore.com
16th Louisiana Infantry: http://www.16thlainf.com/

[Alamo Guard]

Re: csa frock coats at Franklin

I just say "PEC". JUst stick with what period accounts, photographs,a nd documentation say. The majority of the men were in Columbus or Atlanta Depot. The majority of the accounts say they were in same.
Yes there could have been a few frocks around, yes a man could have rejoined his unit and worn a frock. However the men were miles from getting new clothing, in late 1864 for that theatre there was a real shortage of cloth (hence making roundabouts versus frocks). Finally what did the men prefer to wear, a shell jacket plain and simple. Put the frock back in the closet till the next Shiloh event.

[LWhite64]

Re: csa frock coats at Franklin

Well also by that period in 1864, there are a lot of Depot Jackets to possibly chose from. Im leary of the Atlanta Depot Jacket as it is called though, I have went on about that many times in the past, Atlanta was most likely producing the Columbus Depot pattern along with the Augusta and Columbus. There are several obvious Depot pattern jackets out there, just plain, that have a late war origin, we just dont know where they were from.
As to Georgians, I dont think that State issue clothing would be that rare. For instance, see the following issued from the State in mid 1864 for the 5th GA:
72 blankets, 120 Coats, 154 pants, 136 Drawers, 136 shirts, 150 pr shoes, 223 socks. Then in September of 1864 they recieved the following from the State: 20 Hats, 95 Coats, 146 pants, 129 shirts, 175 pr shoes.

Lee

[markj]

Re: csa frock coats at Franklin

Extract from published interview with General George D. Wagner, Indianapolis Daily Journal, 16 December 1864, discussing his controversial actions in the Battle of Franklin:

"The rebels he [Wagner] says, are generally well equipped, with good clothing, and in good health; they form a splendid body of men.—

Regards,

Mark Jaeger

[markj]

Re: csa frock coats at Franklin

Something else to throw into the mix:

Lafayette, Indiana "Daily Journal," 26 December 1864

(extract from a field dispatch submitted by "Q. P. F" and originally published in the Cincinnati "Daily Commercial").

NASHVILLE, December 17. [1864]

"I have seen many different squads of them [the rebel prisoners] representing Cheatham's, Lee's, Stewart's and Chalmer's Corps, and their appearance did not justify the representations that have been made, as to the scantiness of their clothing. They are moderately well clad, though few of them possess overcoats."

Regards,

Mark Jaeger

[DougCooper]

More evidence of well dressed AoT

Kevin Dally dug this out of:
Confederate Industry: Manufacturers and Quartermasters in the Civil War.
2002. Harold S. Wilson. Univ. Press of Miss.
ISBN 1-57806-462-7


Page 127...
" on Nov.8th Lawton sent Hood's command at Tuscumbia another supply consisting of 28,408 Jackets; 38,305 pants; 36,865 pairs of shoes; 21,561 drawers; 17,910 shirts; 40,800 pairs of socks; & 141 bails of Blankets...
The Confederate Army of Tennessee that fought the Battles of Franklin on Nov.30, & Nashville on Dec. 15 was dashingly outfitted." (The last part is the author's opinion).

Further reading shows an additional 6500 pairs of shoes and 2900 blankets shipped to Hood during this same time frame.

No info on the type jackets issued in this lot but the sources were likely Alabama Depots, owing to Atlanta's fall as Wilson points out. As usual, we don't have any quotes I know of breaking it down between Dept of Alabama jackets, Columbus Depot Jackets and Mobile Depot/Mystery Jackets.
The federal prisoner accounts from Dalton and elsewhere of no jackets, missing shoes, ragged everything describe a fairly narrow timeframe and were redressed prior to entering Tennessee, as supported by other information sources sighted in this thread.