British P42 muskets ?

[buckandball]

Gentleman,

Forgive me if this has been discussed, but it didn't surface when I did a search. The recent availability of original British P42 muskets in very good condition got the rusty gears turning...

A thread I found regarding bayonet identification mentioned some documentation of a regiment having .75 cal British muskets. I can only imagine the vast numbers of every make and model of obscure and obsolete arm they dumped on both armies’ procurement systems. Anyone looked into these? Might make a nice early war alternative in some cases? Anyone know of units being armed with this pattern musket?

Regards

Ben

Ben,

Please sign your full name to every post. We do not allow anonymous, unsigned or partially signed posts here.

Thanks,

John Stillwagon
Forum Moderator

[Jonah Barleycorn]

Re: British P42 muskets ?

Greetings Comrade,

Just a few words to remind you that one of the few A-C forum rules state that you must sign your full name(first and last) to each and every post on these boards.

This is something you agreed to when you created your account here. By setting up your auto-signature you can make sure this is covered evyertime, and that it will keep the moderators off your back. :wink_smil


Bully,

[minstrel_boy]

Re: British P42 muskets ?

I haven't heard of a P42 Enfield of the type offered being issued to troops, however I have heard of Belgian P1842 short rifles being issued in noticeable quantities through late 1862.

Eric Ball
62nd Alabama Inf.
1st Alabama Reserves

[Minieball577]

Re: British P42 muskets ?

British P 42's were certainly issued to Confederate troops, and British .75 calibre muskets (likely p-38's and p-42's both) are carried in the Confederate Ordnance manual as arms "currently in service". No evidence exists, or has yet surfaced, that the East Indian Company arms types E or F being imported now were ever imported during the war.

[buckandball]

Re: British P42 muskets ?

So these are the lot of muskets from India/Nepal... Ok, that sheds a little more light. What would be the model/type difference in the East India muskets?

And fellas, sorry for the offense on the name. I thouight this was configured to auto-print my name, etc., maybe that was the previous version of the forum, or perhaps I am mistaken. It's been quite a few months since I was here and it has changed again.

Ben Grant

[Michael McComas]

Re: British P42 muskets ?

The muskets offered by IMA and Atlanta Cutlery are indeed Honourable East India Company muskets. They are similar to P42 percussion muskets which were issued in the War, but there are some points on which they diverge. The grip rail on the trigger guard is the most noticable difference. The Lovell's Patent bayonet catch is another noticable difference between the HEIC musket and the P42. The East India Co. muskets also have different markings on the lock and barrel (a rampant lion instead of queen's crown and VR, and commercial proofs if they're still readable), and by many reports these guns show their age more than other items in the IMA/AC cache. You would have to do a lot of cleaning to make it look like a serviceable arm, and that of course would cut the collectors value significantly.

[Minieball577]

Re: British P42 muskets ?

The muskets offered by IMA and Atlanta Cutlery are indeed Honourable East India Company muskets. They are similar to P42 percussion muskets which were issued in the War, but there are some points on which they diverge. The grip rail on the trigger guard is the most noticable difference. The Lovell's Patent bayonet catch is another noticable difference between the HEIC musket and the P42. The East India Co. muskets also have different markings on the lock and barrel (a rampant lion instead of queen's crown and VR, and commercial proofs if they're still readable), and by many reports these guns show their age more than other items in the IMA/AC cache. You would have to do a lot of cleaning to make it look like a serviceable arm, and that of course would cut the collectors value significantly.

I've done a little looking into the East India Company arms over the last year or so...The following is not really "Civil War" except that it may prevent some confusion caused by the false statements on the sites selling these arms.

The muskets being imported by IMA etc are those contracted for by the Honorable East India Company through their own Board of Ordnance, which often "borrowed heavily" from their friends in the British Government Board of Ordnance. The percussion muskets of the East India Company followed a typology set-up and used in the period (unlike most other typologies available to us today) consisting of types A through F, which were then followed by percussion rifle-muskets of the 1853 type. The typology of A through F for the percussion muskets are carried on the documents of the East India company in England, but would have never been used in the theater to which these arms where shipped i.e. India. In India they simply would have been called a percussion musket.

The percussion musket typology is loosely as follows:

Type A: Basically and 1839 type British musket, with differences in stock retaining pin location, converted to percussion with a brazed bolster/cone seat. Old type of lock with area enough to support flint battery and pan etc. Small block rear sight.

Type B: As above, except converted with a patent breech.

Type C: New type of musket showing somewhat of a transition between the ordnance types 1838 and 1842, with the noted pin location differences. The lock is of the old type, but not having any provisions for the flint battery and pan. These were produced as percussion arms. This musket also has a BAKER rifle type trigger guard “Grip rail”. Approximately 20,000 arms of this type produced. Small block rear sight.

Type D: A transitional arm, mixing characteristics of the above type and the below, small [2,000 (?)] number of arms produced. This musket was the first to incorporate the small lock, similar to that on the 1853 series of arms. This saw a switch to a Brunswick rifle style guard. Small block rear sight.

Type E: This arm was to become the standard musket produced for the East India Company between 1841-2 and the adoption of the 1853 type rifle-musket. It is basically the British Ordnance 1842 musket, “heavily borrowed” from the Board of Ordnance in its design stages. The arm has the small type of lock, like the 1842 British arm (and the Type D above.) The arm has a trigger guard of the Brunswick rifle type “grip rail”. This arm has a Hanoverian type bayonet catch spring, as did the earliest British p-42’s.

Type F: Identical to the above except the bayonet catch spring was switched to the Lovell type spring.

All of their arms were contracted for outside of the British Government procurement methods, but often from the same suppliers in Birmingham etc as those government contracted arms or similar types. The arms were assembled in England, for the East India Company. All are marked on their locks with the Lion motif of the East India Company.

The arms being imported now I have seen were of the Type E and Type F varieties, with both being in fair serviceable order. Wood, of course was a bit rough. The above was drawn, after much search for information on these arms, from the only real source on the East India Company, entitled “Small Arms of the East India Company”. This work is amazing, drawn entirely from contemporary sources, primarily those on file in England concerning the East India Company. The bummer about the book is that there are only, I believe, 4 copies in the U.S. I got mine on Interlibrary loan from I think from the University of Minnesota